The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[TommiG88]

Fair enough I guess. But still, I think they should make an effort to distinguish themselves by adding England.

No, we deserve it. (Arrogance)

 

[ncurd]

Fair enough I guess. But still, I think they should make an effort to distinguish themselves by adding England.

The FA as opposed to EFA as well. I know the reason for that and it's probably the same for rugby. In the past we controlled the sport and its governance therefore we were the FA as we governed football. When we relinquished control to a worldwide body that pillar of integrity FIFA we kept the name and the right to be recognised as the first FA by not having to put our country name first. In the FA we also get a permenany executive seat.

We did it with most international clubs we belong to like the UN.

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Yup same sort of thing we were in charge we kept our name.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Football_Union

 

[YoungScud]

The FA as opposed to EFA as well. I know the reason for that and it's probably the same for rugby. In the past we controlled the sport and its governance therefore we were the FA as we governed football. When we relinquished control to a worldwide body that pillar of integrity FIFA we kept the name and the right to be recognised as the first FA by not having to put our country name first. In the FA we also get a permenany executive seat.

We did it with most international clubs we belong to like the UN.

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Yup same sort of thing we were in charge we kept our name.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Football_Union

No you didn't. I don't remember England being given a permanent seat at the UN Security Council.

 

[Grizwald]

Anyone else mentioned England have a 3 series tour of Australia in June 2016? That could be fun!

Hope to have a young talented team on show by then after hopefully a good 6N.

 

[Peat]

Don't know if the 72 players thing was posted in here or another thread, but I'm posting it here as I think it'll be of some interest to others - I counted up all the players used by Hansen to try and work out if 72 was a mad number. Was going to do minutes like the Telegraph thing, but finding reliable sources was difficult (until I realised wiki had my back but was half-way through; might redo at some point).

Going by primary position, the NZedders have used the following

Full back: Dagg, B Smith (2)
Winger: Guildford, Savea, Jane, Gear, Ranger, Piutau, Halai, Naholo, Milner-Skudder (9)
Centres: C Smith, S Williams, Nonu, Ellison, Crotty, Saili, Fekitoa (7)
Fly-halves: Carter, Cruden, Barrett, Taylor, Slade, Sopoaga (6)
Scrum-halves: A Smith, Weepu, Kerr-Barlow, Perenara, Pulu, Ellis (6)
Props: Woodcock, O Franks, B Franks, Faumina, Afeaki, Toomaga-Allen, Moody, Laulala (8)
Hookers: Hore, Elliot, Mealamu, Coles, Harris, Parsons, Taylor (7)
Locks: Retallick, S Whitelock, A Williams, Romano, Thrush, Bird, Tuipulotu, Broadhurst (8)
Back rows: Vito, McCaw, Read, Cane, Messam, Thomson, Luatua, Todd, L Whitelock, Kaino (10)

That is 63 over the same period. In comparison, 72 seems a bit extravagant, but not outrageously so. One team's played one more game, but I forget which it is. Roughly comparable - new coaches - although NZ started with a more settled team. South Africa might be a better comparison and I'll hit that up too.

Comparing it

We've used 4 full-backs - although only 3 of them seriously - not too bad. 10 Wingers, seems normal, high burn-out position. 10 centres - well, they have a rock solid all time great partnership, stands to reason we've tried more, but shows the wobble. 7 fly-halves to their 6. 4 scrum-halves to their 6 - stable position for us, a lot of those AB guys have blown in and out. 10 props - we've probably used too many here, although both sides have a few guys with most the game time, and a few with barely any. 7 locks - we're solid here, good work guys. 12 back rows - plenty of experimentation, and yet no back up to Robshaw!

In short - probably has been a bit too much chopping and changing. Also, we've had a lot of squad members who never played a game, not sure the ABs would say the same.

 

[ncurd]

No you didn't. I don't remember England being given a permanent seat at the UN Security Council.

Are you genuinely upset? Christ.....that's one hell of a chip.

I really don't want to get into a politics debate about the structure of United Kingdom of GB & NI. The point was simply when you create a thing you generally create previledges for yourself.

 

[nickdnz]

Didn't realize Guildford was capped in 2012.

 

[Peat]

Didn't realize Guildford was capped in 2012.

Hansen's first couple of matches, never to be seen again. I consider myself a sad nerdy git when it comes to rugby but some of those guys I'd pretty much never heard before, Pulu and some of the hookers.

South Africa

FB: Kirchner, Aplon, Le Roux (3)
W: Pietersen, Habana, Oliver, Mvovo, Basson, Hendricks (6)
C: de Villiers, F Steyn, Engelbrecht, Taute, de Jongh, Serfontein, Fourie, De Allende, Kriel, Mapoe (10)
FH: M Steyn, Lambie, Goosen, Jantjies, Pollard, Boshoff (6)
SH: Hougaard, Pienaar, Vermaak, Van Zyl, Du Preez, Reinach (6)
P: Mtawarira, J du Plessis, Oosthuizen, W Kruger, Cilliers, Greyling, Steenkamp, H van der Merwe, Van Der Linde, Nyakane, Malherbe, Adriaanse, M van der Merwe, Redelinghuys, Koch (16)
H: B du Plessis, Strauss, Liebenberg, Brits, Ralepelle (5)
L: Etzebeth, J Kruger, Fl van der Merwe, Bekker, Du Toit, Fr van der Merwe, Botha, Matfield, De Jager, Lewies (10)
BR: Coetzee, Alberts, Spies, Daniel, Potgieter, Kankowski, Vermeulen, Louw, Botha, Kolisi, Burger, Mohoje, Smith, Whitely, Carr, Brussow (16)

78. Lancaster's 72 looks ok in comparison to that... although they're the only other 'great power' near to us in the underperforming stakes, so maybe not that comforting. Wtf went on with their back row and props I'd love to know.

Italy and France are the only other countries that appointed a new coach after 2012 and kept them to the World Cup I think. Might do them for comparison's sake. Might go mad and do all of them.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Maybe but as mentioned elsewhere NZ and SA are meant to be aging teams so it is expected for them to try more.

Lancaster has by his own admission said he has an inexperienced team yet he doesn't seem to want to give players outside his chosen few a run of games.

Case in point Despite being the same age Sam Cane has gotten 27 caps compared to Kvesic 2 caps (against Argentina).

I think Robshaw has started @ 7 for all but 3 games (I think) and plays pretty much all the game.

Kvesic has been in brilliant form in the AP for at least 3 years IMO.

What would really be interesting is the number of consecutive minutes players get a run at.

 

[valley commando]

Neil Back = Hero
James Haskell = Zero

 

[Willodell100]

Maybe but as mentioned elsewhere NZ and SA are meant to be aging teams so it is expected for them to try more.

Lancaster has by his own admission said he has an inexperienced team yet he doesn't seem to want to give players outside his chosen few a run of games.

Case in point Despite being the same age Sam Cane has gotten 27 caps compared to Kvesic 2 caps (against Argentina).

I think Robshaw has started @ 7 for all but 3 games (I think) and plays pretty much all the game.

Kvesic has been in brilliant form in the AP for at least 3 years IMO.

What would really be interesting is the number of consecutive minutes players get a run at.

That is really surprising. The only difference I can think of is Kane got a run of games when McCaw took an extended break from the game.

 

[Willodell100]

Neil Back = Hero
James Haskell = Zero

I hear you but I have to say I've changed my opinion of Haskell.

I think going over to New Zealand & Japan was the making of him as it knocked the arrogance out of him and since coming back to England he has matured and more importantly played really well for Wasps.

 

[nealn]

That is 63 over the same period. In comparison, 72 seems a bit extravagant, but not outrageously so. One team's played one more game, but I forget which it is. Roughly comparable - new coaches - although NZ started with a more settled team. South Africa might be a better comparison and I'll hit that up too.

Also in Lancaster's defence you could point out that England play a number of tests at a time when they have a number of their best players unavailable (as they're with the Lions) which necessitates the use of some additional players to what might be expected for non-GB&I international teams.

 

[nickdnz]

For me it's more a case of the All Blacks spent four years introducing the guys who he felt were the best fit - into the starting line up straight from 2012. Julian Savea, Aaron Smith, Brodie Retallick, Ben Smith, Aaron Cruden, Dane Coles.

These guys filled the gap left by guys Thorn, Weepu, Kahui, Hore etc, etc. He then went on to establish a bench; Cane, Barrett, Peranara, Piatau.

But what you will notice is - aside from right winger - the majority of the squad and its pecking order has been pretty well established - with the a bit of room added for who is third or fourth choice.

It's not that England introduced too many players in my opinion. It's that after four years he didn't know who his best players were. Players weren't added to the squad and slowly given opportunities; they were thrown in as starters with other inexperienced players - and then the squad was gutted when they didn't all of a sudden perform like experienced world class players.

People wonder how Sam Cane has so many caps? It's because he has been blooded carefully, mainly used from the bench, and built up his skill set and confidence without the pressure of being first choice and his squad position on the line. There is a clear succession plan in place.

What happens if Robshaw is injured? Is Kvesic now the starting 7? What happens if in his first 6 Nations match - he starts and has a bad game? Is he replaced with Haskell/Clarke/another player who has a bit of experience but ultimately a low cealing?

 

[j'nuh]

Joe Marler - It's a scrum deal
Mako Vunipola - Ditto
Dan Cole - Ditto
Kieran Brookes - Ditto
Tom Youngs - Ditto, with throwing, although that's exaggerated

I posted this on the other thread, but I'm absolutely convinced that the scrummaging issue was a coaching one. Marler doesn't scrummage sideways for several games in a row because he feels like it. It's a new thing he's started doing this WC, probably under guidance from Rowntree. It should reflect badly on Rowntree, not his players. I'm especially miffed that after several penalties in a row, England didn't change anything. Do we have no scrummaging plan B?

Also, I thought Vunipola's scrummaging was fairly decent.

Rob Webber - Throwing

Been second-choice for Bath for the last year. I'm surprised Lancaster kept him around.

 

[Maverick1987]

At the end of the day All of the coaches and Rob Andrew need to go on their way . In all of our various jobs if we failed to do the minimum expected we would be fired . In 4 years Lancaster and co haven't done the minimum expected which is win a 6N and put in a decent show at our World Cup . Rob Andrew hasn't done his job correctly for a decade ......

 

[Willodell100]

What happens if Robshaw is injured? Is Kvesic now the starting 7? What happens if in his first 6 Nations match - he starts and has a bad game? Is he replaced with Haskell/Clarke/another player who has a bit of experience but ultimately a low cealing?

If Robshaw was injured during this World Cup it would be have been Haskell with Wood shifting over to 7.

Whoever is coach however Come the 6Ns Robshaw won't be captain therefore taking the pressure off that position.

If Lancaster somehow keeps his job (I wouldn't put it past the RFU) I think he would be put under a lot of pressure to pick a traditional 7. My guess is Kvesic would be the obvious choice. Callum Clark has been wearing the 7 shirt at Northampton but, like Robshaw, he's a 6 and (in my view) a pretty average one. But SL rates him highly (for his workrate) so I wouldn't put it past him.

 

[ratsapprentice]

People wonder how Sam Cane has so many caps? It's because he has been blooded carefully, mainly used from the bench, and built up his skill set and confidence without the pressure of being first choice and his squad position on the line. There is a clear succession plan in place.

I made a point about this at least 18 months ago... there have been many games in the 6N where guys like Kvesic should have at least been on the bench with a mind to giving them 20-30 minutes.

As it is he's been given a handful of senior opportunities and despite outplaying his back row competition handsomely, he's not been rewarded or invested in any further.

Wtf went on with their back row and props I'd love to know.

Quotas.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I posted this on the other thread, but I'm absolutely convinced that the scrummaging issue was a coaching one. Marler doesn't scrummage sideways for several games in a row because he feels like it. It's a new thing he's started doing this WC, probably under guidance from Rowntree. It should reflect badly on Rowntree, not his players. I'm especially miffed that after several penalties in a row, England didn't change anything. Do we have no scrummaging plan B?

Also, I thought Vunipola's scrummaging was fairly decent.


Been second-choice for Bath for the last year. I'm surprised Lancaster kept him around.

Marler's scrummaging had improved hugely and as a former loose head Rowntree knows what he takes and he wouldn't have been coaching that without a reason. The only ones I can think of are (a) Compensating for a loss of weight and, with it, power or more likely (b) He simply found it a lot more difficult to scrummage with Youngs than Hartley. I think this is much more about the no2 than the no1.

 

[YoungScud]

Are you genuinely upset? Christ.....that's one hell of a chip.

I really don't want to get into a politics debate about the structure of United Kingdom of GB & NI. The point was simply when you create a thing you generally create previledges for yourself.

Not upset, no. In fact, every time I see garbage like that, it makes me smile.