Test Match 3: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Auckland)

[The Jones Boy]

What goes on tour...

 

[The Jones Boy]

You kiwi fans really don't get what a fan is do you?

Please don't tar us all with that brush.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

What goes on tour...

......is all over social media in nanoseconds.

 

[Nubiwan]

This is something that I am not happy about.
Hogg did it in the RWC, Williams was doing it in the third test.
If you get hammered and you get hurt, there's no issue with blokes staying down to get treatment, but when you start seeing the soccer/football antics entering into rugby alarm bells should be going off.
I clocked it when I watched the game in the pub on Saturday morning however it is more obvious when you see it again, I rewatched the game last night (instead of doing paperwork, DoH!!)

Liam Williams was collapsing like he had been blasted by a sawn off shot gun at close range to the solar plexus in a 'theatrical manner' whenever he had the opportunity.
It wasn't pleasant viewing and you have to wonder if he was under instruction; it was clearly a cynical option because it happened more than once.
When he had slight contact with Read at the aerial challenge in the non penalty situation near the end of the match, while still in the air, Williams was already lifting his left hand to his head (like a bloke with a serious hangover who has just had a whistle blown in his ear,) as he came back to earth and yet no contact had been made with his head.
He then lay on the ground like he had been hit by SBW with a no arms tackle, in a prone position to suggest he had been knocked out.
That kind of simulation has no place in rugby.
Frankly it's shameful to see a player of his calibre resorting to this kind of tactic and I would be keen to see cards given for this in the future to discourage this unedifying form of gamesmanship.

I agree Jonesy. There is no place for it.

Coming from Liverpool, and preferring rugby as my sport over the predominant footy in the city, I often point out that football players do all they can to show they are hurt (when they are clearly OK), while rugby players do all they can to show they are fine (when they have clearly just taken a heavy hit). Professional football is a bloody joke. We don't need any "hollywood"rugby.

Williams looked a pratt. Retallick kind of did a "hey - I just took a high shot" look at the ref, in the example given earlier, but essentially got on with it, more or less.. I thought Barrett milked a couple in the 2nd test, if I am being honest. The higher the stakes, then sadly, the more of this bullshit we might see creeping into the game. No place for it.

I am somewhat doubtful Vunipola would have got his card, if Barrett had simply got up and on with it. As it was, he flaked out after a look at the ref, and it drew the attention required, and the card. It deserved a card, but plenty of that stuff goes missed in matches, as we all know.

 

[Nubiwan]

Barrett WAS contacted, long after the ball had departed. Mako Vunipola was on a mission to put himself about. He was carded if I recall...
Nobody is pointing the finger at Watson for simulating when he took a high illegal shot from SBW, because he wasn't simulating, he copped a hard hit and he didn't make any effort to make a meal of it.

Liam Williams behaviour in the third test was to starting look like he was the Hindenburg on it's slow crash to earth.
What next?
Actual tears?
His Mum coming onto the field to confront a prospective tackler with a handbag flourish.
Lawyers from 'Sue him while you're still in the Air Ltd' dashing on to get a signature from the unconscious player who miraculously reaches out a hand from his prone position to squiggle a signature"

This nonsense has just started to creep into the game in the last few years and it needs to be dealt with because if it is allowed to continue it's going to be a blight on the game.

It goes hand in hand with another bugbear of mine. Players interfering with referees and players demanding cards.

Both of the All Black half backs are prime candidates for retribution from the referee and it annoys me intensely to watch Aaron Smith and TJ Perenara for trying to incite the ref to their way of thinking.
Shouting at the referee is not acceptable.
Halfbacks are yappy, thats ok if they are giving it to their own forwards and verbally steering them (because often, forwards aren't very clever and they need a sheep dog to tell them where to be)

Shouting at the referee is a different act altogether.

They are both guilty of it and Perenara needs more than a censure, he needs a clip round the lug hole. He is outta line all too often. I hate watching him now because he's waaaay too gobby.
They should be smacked with a penalty straight away and if they continue then march them 10 yards for getting lippy.
If they continue after that then card them.
If they come back on to the field and continue that nonsense then cite them and stand them down for a game.
I have no problem with lippy players getting marched and then carded if they keep it up.
Shut up and play the game.
Only the captain should be able to approach the ref and ask a question.

Players holding their hands up enticing the ref to give a card.
That has to stop too.
Owen Farrell is a prime offender for this nonsense.
Players who do this should be cited after the game and if caught on camera be stood down for a game.
It would soon stamp it out.
The ref is the one to make the decision, not the players.
The ref will be getting enough assistance from the crowd and the officials, he doesn't need players holding up an imaginary card.

It's not about making the ref a dictator.
It's about showing the referee respect so he can get on with his job, regardless of how he is doing it.
Players can always urge their captain to ask a question... after that shut up and play the game.

Reading my mind again Mr Jones.

Smith and TJ are great halfbacks, and I have seen both of them since they started their super rugby careers. They now irritate me no end with their antics. They look like ***s. Its why i always prefer watching that lad with the Chiefs (Kerr Barlow?) over the pair of them. Nice gritty player. Wasn't too spectacular in the Lions game he had, as I recall, but I would exclude those two yappy halfbacks from the AB squad out of principal Just shut up the pair of yee.....

 

[Ospervat]

Barrett WAS contacted, long after the ball had departed. Mako Vunipola was on a mission to put himself about. He was carded if I recall...
Nobody is pointing the finger at Watson for simulating when he took a high illegal shot from SBW, because he wasn't simulating, he copped a hard hit and he didn't make any effort to make a meal of it.

Liam Williams behaviour in the third test was to starting look like he was the Hindenburg on it's slow crash to earth.
What next?
Actual tears?
His Mum coming onto the field to confront a prospective tackler with a handbag flourish.
Lawyers from 'Sue him while you're still in the Air Ltd' dashing on to get a signature from the unconscious player who miraculously reaches out a hand from his prone position to squiggle a signature"

This nonsense has just started to creep into the game in the last few years and it needs to be dealt with because if it is allowed to continue it's going to be a blight on the game.

It goes hand in hand with another bugbear of mine. Players interfering with referees and players demanding cards.

Both of the All Black half backs are prime candidates for retribution from the referee and it annoys me intensely to watch Aaron Smith and TJ Perenara for trying to incite the ref to their way of thinking.
Shouting at the referee is not acceptable.
Halfbacks are yappy, thats ok if they are giving it to their own forwards and verbally steering them (because often, forwards aren't very clever and they need a sheep dog to tell them where to be)

Shouting at the referee is a different act altogether.

They are both guilty of it and Perenara needs more than a censure, he needs a clip round the lug hole. He is outta line all too often. I hate watching him now because he's waaaay too gobby.
They should be smacked with a penalty straight away and if they continue then march them 10 yards for getting lippy.
If they continue after that then card them.
If they come back on to the field and continue that nonsense then cite them and stand them down for a game.
I have no problem with lippy players getting marched and then carded if they keep it up.
Shut up and play the game.
Only the captain should be able to approach the ref and ask a question.

Players holding their hands up enticing the ref to give a card.
That has to stop too.
Owen Farrell is a prime offender for this nonsense.
Players who do this should be cited after the game and if caught on camera be stood down for a game.
It would soon stamp it out.
The ref is the one to make the decision, not the players.
The ref will be getting enough assistance from the crowd and the officials, he doesn't need players holding up an imaginary card.

It's not about making the ref a dictator.
It's about showing the referee respect so he can get on with his job, regardless of how he is doing it.
Players can always urge their captain to ask a question... after that shut up and play the game.

Love the thinking. If a player has an issue or is aware of some aspect which he wants the ref to consider - then follow the chain of command - tell the captain and let him take it up with the ref if he deems it worthwhile.

Any communication by any player with the ref other than the respective captains earns a yellow - that will soon shut the gobby's up.

 

[Da Grappla]

The referee has to be like a ship captain from the Age of Sail...you don't talk to him unless he has addressed you first

The way to go as rugby fans, is mocking the floppers and fakers and calling them out whenever they do their acting piece

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

The referee has to be like a ship captain from the Age of Sail...you don't talk to him unless he has addressed you first

The way to go as rugby fans, is mocking the floppers and fakers and calling them out whenever they do their acting piece

Ehhhh... I've noticed that when doing higher level games having players who know how to communicate with the ref makes my job a lot easier.

I did a game with an Eagle scrum half where he talked to me the entire time during the game. Him doing so helped me avoid getting drilled and helped me get into position for the next breakdown.

 

[big ginger 8]

Love the thinking. If a player has an issue or is aware of some aspect which he wants the ref to consider - then follow the chain of command - tell the captain and let him take it up with the ref if he deems it worthwhile.

Any communication by any player with the ref other than the respective captains earns a yellow - that will soon shut the gobby's up.

Frontrows have to be able to talk to the ref. Captains get weird looks on their face when I tell them what the opposition are doing illegally.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Frontrows have to be able to talk to the ref.

No they don't.
There's no 'special circumstances'.

Captains get weird looks on their face when I tell them what the opposition are doing illegally.

Only if the captains are in the backs. Then you can tell the Captain in a way that the ref overhears you... by accident of course.
Gobbyness isn't restricted to halfbacks and first fives, front rows can be just as gobby, I remember a couple of blokes called John Smit and before him Sean Fitzpatrick... they would quite happily referee games when given the opportunity. I'm pretty sure Fitzy used to carry a whistle. Keith Wood used to like a word as well and in all three cases they were hookers and Captains so the ref's had a hard time shutting them up.
Brian Moore wasn't shy of speaking up either.
Zinzan Brooke didn't mind getting on his soap box occasionally, I can remember him saying to a ref once upon a time, after he had been asked to keep his opinion to himself,
"Yeah, but we're professionals, you're an amateur, I'm just trying to help you bridge the gap."


No.
Captains only.
Unless spoken to by the ref in a manner that requires a response.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

No they don't.
There's no 'special circumstances'.



Only if the captains are in the backs. Then you can tell the Captain in a way that the ref overhears you... by accident of course.
Gobbyness isn't restricted to halfbacks and first fives, front rows can be just as gobby, I remember a couple of blokes called John Smit and before him Sean Fitzpatrick... they would quite happily referee games when given the opportunity. I'm pretty sure Fitzy used to carry a whistle. Keith Wood used to like a word as well and in all three cases they were hookers and Captains so the ref's had a hard time shutting them up.
Brian Moore wasn't shy of speaking up either.
Zinzan Brooke didn't mind getting on his soap box occasionally, I can remember him saying to a ref once upon a time, after he had been asked to keep his opinion to himself,
"Yeah, but we're professionals, you're an amateur, I'm just trying to help you bridge the gap."


No.
Captains only.
Unless spoken to by the ref in a manner that requires a response.

Do you know how annoying a game is when teams feel any words have to come through the captain?

It also creates the myth that the captain is allowed to say whatever they want to the referee whenever they want, which isn't true.

Having all players being able to talk to the referee (as long as they do so in a respective manner) makes the game go much smoother and also helps players avoid penalties. If players weren't allowed to talk to me setting up a lineout would take an extra 10 seconds every time.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

The primary use of the captain should not be to complain to officials. Rather they are a tool so that the referee can tell one person who can tell their whole team the referees message rather than the referee talking to the whole team.

If the referee needs to hear a message about what is going on in the front row i don't wanna have the team play whisper down the alley when I'm three feet away from the front row.

 

[The Jones Boy]

There is nothing to stop the ref from engaging the players and getting a response.
The ref is entitled to speak to players at will and ask questions etc
Replying to a question is normal.
Referees can set their own bar about what they want in terms of discussion.
However...
There is way too much player initiated chat going on across the field to the ref at this time trying to influence decisions.
It has to be suppressed.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

There is nothing to stop the ref from engaging the players and getting a response.
The ref is entitled to speak to players at will and ask questions etc
Replying to a question is normal.
Referees can set their own bar about what they want in terms of discussion.
However...
There is way too much player initiated chat going on across the field to the ref at this time trying to influence decisions.
It has to be suppressed.

I agree that there is too much dissent right now.

What needs to be done is penalising teams for being dicks but rewarding for them for being helpful.

Advance 10 meters or call a penalty for dissent. Smile and say thanks when a player initiates a helpful conversation.

 

[The Jones Boy]

March them 10 metres, YEAH, now we're talking.
Nothing make s a gobby twat look like a gobby twat in front of his team mates better than marching him 10.

I'm all for halfbacks chivvying their forwards on and chasing them up to get to the next ruck before the new moon but... if they start chipping at the ref then they get what they deserve.
Forwards work hard to gain territory, they don't appreciate giving it up cheaply because a numpty can't hold his tongue.

Obviously, I have no issue with players letting the ref know there's an injury etc or a substitution...

 

[Penne Rara]

If you haven't already seen it, try to get a look at a photo in the inewspaper today. Tadhg Furlong and Codie Taylor after the game - fantastic!

http://www.gettyimages.fr/detail/ph...-taylor-of-the-all-blacks-picture-id810748384

They look cute together

 

[Groundhog]

No they don't.
There's no 'special circumstances'.



Only if the captains are in the backs. Then you can tell the Captain in a way that the ref overhears you... by accident of course.
Gobbyness isn't restricted to halfbacks and first fives, front rows can be just as gobby, I remember a couple of blokes called John Smit and before him Sean Fitzpatrick... they would quite happily referee games when given the opportunity. I'm pretty sure Fitzy used to carry a whistle. Keith Wood used to like a word as well and in all three cases they were hookers and Captains so the ref's had a hard time shutting them up.
Brian Moore wasn't shy of speaking up either.
Zinzan Brooke didn't mind getting on his soap box occasionally, I can remember him saying to a ref once upon a time, after he had been asked to keep his opinion to himself,
"Yeah, but we're professionals, you're an amateur, I'm just trying to help you bridge the gap."


No.
Captains only.
Unless spoken to by the ref in a manner that requires a response.

Have you played the game? Referees will often tell front rows to let him know if they're unhappy. It's a massive safety issue and this no talking to the ref thing would look pretty silly if a prop gets a neck injury because a scrum collapses because of an overly large/short gap. Also stuff like asking 'am I onside', 'is the ball out' and 'can have a larger gap' are pretty important features of the game that help players stay on the right side of the law and make the refs job easier. You're not going to relay these things to your captain mid game.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Have you played the game?

Really? Is this where you're coming from?

...Referees will often tell front rows to let him know if they're unhappy. It's a massive safety issue...

Ref's can do what they like, I have no issue about that at all, did you not read the earlier material. Ref's can initiate discussion whenever they see fit, they're the ref. Maybe at kids level or low level rugby the players need to have a constant conversation with the ref (and thats fine, it's primarily at the level of inexperience where the issues arise) but once you know what you're doing very little needs to be spoken about to the ref, the ref may ask for it, thats different.
Sometimes it's because one team is determined to put the hurt on the other pack, that gets resolved quickly with a penalty for pushing earlier etc.
How much is a conversation going to help a ref resolve a wheeled scrum?

...and this no talking to the ref thing would look pretty silly if a prop gets a neck injury because a scrum collapses because of an overly large/short gap.

You're clutching at straws. There are much bigger issues there than initiating communication with the ref for that kind of serious issue, like bindings and inexperience on the contact procedure. It could be a huge weight disadvantage in the pack, the ref can address those quickly even without a conversation. Any ref worth their salt will spot that straight away.

Also stuff like asking 'am I onside', 'is the ball out' and 'can have a larger gap' are pretty important features of the game that help players stay on the right side of the law and make the refs job easier.

"Am I onside?" When would you ever ask that? When would you ever have the time? What level are you playing at or referring to?

Your not going to relay these things to your captain mid game.

Nor should you ever need to unless you are teaching kids or novices. In the latter cases by all means have a conversation where it helps them learn. Same goes for the lineout.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Have you played the game?

Ah yes - the old "Have you ever played the game" How original.

 

[mania]

You need to explain this comment. "NZers don't understand 'irony' "

yeah how does it generate all that heat to press clothes? amazing!!