Test Match 3: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Auckland)

[Nubiwan]

Love the thinking. If a player has an issue or is aware of some aspect which he wants the ref to consider - then follow the chain of command - tell the captain and let him take it up with the ref if he deems it worthwhile.

Any communication by any player with the ref other than the respective captains earns a yellow - that will soon shut the gobby's up.

Not always the case Osper......

In a cup final I was in, many moons ago, the ref missed a couple of major knock-ons that (as captain) I verbosely reminded him about. He proceeded to award a pen against me. I complained more. He marched me back about 20 more metres. To a point it was a rather simple 3 point chip just outside our 22. The lad missed his kick wide of the post and, whilst feeling a bit of a ***, I was as vindicated ***. Was all I could do not to say to the ref "perhaps you should have bloody kicked it too..." but I was over it by this point.

 

[Nubiwan]

I used to talk to refs all the time during matches in capacity as Captain. I always always made a point of congratulating them after games, was on a first name basis with most and often shared a pint. Even the "knock on" ref in my previous post was a good "rugby friend", long before that cup final, that I could share a laugh and story with. I felt I was always treated fairly and respected because of it, if not given my side an advantage. Well, that's what I thought

 

[The5thOfficial]

Gats and Warburton did fail, they wanted to win...

They failed to win, but didn't lose!

 

[munstermuffin]

They failed to win, but didn't lose!

But still failed as
failed = Not reaching the objective

 

[The5thOfficial]

Gats and Warburton did fail, they wanted to win...

They failed to win, but didn't lose!

But still failed as
failed = Not reaching the objective

lol - I think there is way too much overthinking goes on here. I think result for the Lions, Gatland and various individuals who were given so much stick here even before the tour. I'll bet this tour gets mentioned more in years to come than the one in 2005.

 

[munstermuffin]

They failed to win, but didn't lose!


lol - I think there is way too much overthinking goes on here. I think result for the Lions, Gatland and various individuals who were given so much stick here even before the tour. I'll bet this tour gets mentioned more in years to come than the one in 2005.

Not really. Just picking up on Alpha saying they did fail. He is technically correct. They did fail their objective.
I'd also disagree on this tour being seen as a top tour. It was a poor standard overall.
In 1 way it should get mentioned more than 2005 as the overall result was more memorable. But maybe it might be less as 2005 was such a disaster.
Either way I don't see why it'd constantly be compared to 2005. There has been 2 tours since. Yes to different countries but in 2005 nobody was comparing it to previous tour of NZ. If you say "it was because 2005 was so bad" then it was easy to achieve because it was harder to be worst than 2005.

Facts are -
1. New Zealand were nowhere near as good in 2017 as they were in 2005. (I think NZ 2005 side would've beaten either 2017 teams by 20-30points.)
2. Yes players were more together than 2005 on Lions side.
3. The SBW Red and Poor Goal kicking by BB were big factors on the series.
4. If you notice Gatland is getting credit for getting the draw, but has won noone over for his antics, style and squad management.

They're the majority views. I would add the real winner in terms of coaches on this tour was Andy Farrell.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Gatland did well to get the draw, but who knows what could have happened had he got Sexton and Farrell to play together earlier in the tour, played Krotoje Henderson or Lawes rather than Wyn-Jones, and encouraged development of a wider game earlier in the tour.

 

[munstermuffin]

Gatland did well to get the draw, but who knows what could have happened had he got Sexton and Farrell to play together earlier in the tour, played Krotoje Henderson or Lawes rather than Wyn-Jones, and encouraged development of a wider game earlier in the tour.

Exactly the point of alot. I think also that Tuesday game in between test 1 and 2. He flogged guys and that was detrimental.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Not really. Just picking up on Alpha saying they did fail. He is technically correct. They did fail their objective.
I'd also disagree on this tour being seen as a top tour. It was a poor standard overall.
In 1 way it should get mentioned more than 2005 as the overall result was more memorable. But maybe it might be less as 2005 was such a disaster.
Either way I don't see why it'd constantly be compared to 2005. There has been 2 tours since. Yes to different countries but in 2005 nobody was comparing it to previous tour of NZ. If you say "it was because 2005 was so bad" then it was easy to achieve because it was harder to be worst than 2005.

Facts are -
1. New Zealand were nowhere near as good in 2017 as they were in 2005. (I think NZ 2005 side would've beaten either 2017 teams by 20-30points.)
2. Yes players were more together than 2005 on Lions side.
3. The SBW Red and Poor Goal kicking by BB were big factors on the series.
4. If you notice Gatland is getting credit for getting the draw, but has won noone over for his antics, style and squad management.

They're the majority views. I would add the real winner in terms of coaches on this tour was Andy Farrell.

There you go again, overthinking! I get depressed sometimes not with constructive criticism but with the outright negative hostility that is thrown about. I watch the forums all the time and when I read the papers and listen to the pundits on TV its like y'all watching a different game, different series on a different planet! The press and TV have hailed these Lions pretty much as hero's even though they didn't actually win the series. Can't we do the same - its more than any other team have managed against the ABs? And Gatland was at the helm - give the guy a break! Its like some guys kick him BECAUSE he didn't completely fail. Anywayyyyyyyyy!

 

[munstermuffin]

There you go again, overthinking! I get depressed sometimes not with constructive criticism but with the outright negative hostility that is thrown about. I watch the forums all the time and when I read the papers and listen to the pundits on TV its like y'all watching a different game, different series on a different planet! The press and TV have hailed these Lions pretty much as hero's even though they didn't actually win the series. Can't we do the same - its more than any other team have managed against the ABs? And Gatland was at the helm - give the guy a break! Its like some guys kick him BECAUSE he didn't completely fail. Anywayyyyyyyyy!

But it's not overthinking. Just straight forward. Like you made a point and apart from being wrong on the objective/fail thing you haven't even given 1 ounce to say everyone else is wrong.
I will ask 3 things.
1. What media outlet has hailed these guys hero's? I genuinely haven't seen anyone say that.
2. Did Gatland say his objective was to win? If so what did he acheive?
3. What did he do that any other team has managed against the All Blacks?

 

[The5thOfficial]

But it's not overthinking. Just straight forward. Like you made a point and apart from being wrong on the objective/fail thing you haven't even given 1 ounce to say everyone else is wrong.
I will ask 3 things.
1. What media outlet has hailed these guys hero's? I genuinely haven't seen anyone say that.
2. Did Gatland say his objective was to win? If so what did he acheive?
3. What did he do that any other team has managed against the All Blacks?

And again! You're so busy overthinking that you're now in accusatory mode. I haven't said anything you've said was wrong, just that you're overthinking!

1: I read every page (about 5 I believe) in the Sunday Times wind up of the tour, by several writers. On the whole it was pretty positive. Of course there was 'some' constructive criticism but not the frankly nasty bile like way you read here. Other media, the tabloids, social media such as Twitter was all pretty up for the Lions. And I am sure that hero's was a word mentioned more than once. I mean if I have to direct you to examples, you're not as clued up as you believe you are.

2: I agree he (Gatland) didn't achieve his objective. I didn't say anything else other than give him a break. My point with him was and is that his achievements and record as Lions coach isn't as bad as some. If I was a visitor from another planet, reading these forums and nothing else, I'd believe that Gatland had committed murder or something. What did he achieve? A drawn (not a lost) series.

3: Sorry - I'm not sure I understand the question. The ABs dont 'draw' many series, if any? I could be wrong on that. if so I stand corrected.

Chill out man, ffs!

 

[munstermuffin]

And again! You're so busy overthinking that you're now in accusatory mode. I haven't said anything you've said was wrong, just that you're overthinking!

1: I read every page (about 5 I believe) in the Sunday Times wind up of the tour, by several writers. On the whole it was pretty positive. Of course there was 'some' constructive criticism but not the frankly nasty bile like way you read here. Other media, the tabloids, social media such as Twitter was all pretty up for the Lions. And I am sure that hero's was a word mentioned more than once. I mean if I have to direct you to examples, you're not as clued up as you believe you are.

2: I agree he (Gatland) didn't achieve his objective. I didn't say anything else other than give him a break. My point with him was and is that his achievements and record as Lions coach isn't as bad as some. If I was a visitor from another planet, reading these forums and nothing else, I'd believe that Gatland had committed murder or something. What did he achieve? A drawn (not a lost) series.

3: Sorry - I'm not sure I understand the question. The ABs dont 'draw' many series, if any? I could be wrong on that. if so I stand corrected.

Chill out man, ffs!

Ok so again you still haven't got point.

1. They had similar reviews in papers in 2013 and 2009. In fact 2009 was probably the most positive. But again that isn't overthinking just straight forward. Yes alot of social media has praise and others the same as most here saying. It was good but could've been better. Just I've seen on Social Media Elvis is still alive so like that doesn't make it bang on.

2. Again what has been so bile. Alot think tour could've been better? Alot think alternatives were better?

3. On achievements many SH tours got similar results just they aren't classed as series as it may have been through Tri-Nations etc. Just you said and I quote "its more than any other team have managed against the ABs". So guess that statement again is wrong.

And I'm chilled just debating valid points. Like many here are but well all you can say is "overthinking" like what exactly is anyone over thinking. It seems it's all normal opinions

 

[Ospervat]

Not always the case Osper......

In a cup final I was in, many moons ago, the ref missed a couple of major knock-ons that (as captain) I verbosely reminded him about. He proceeded to award a pen against me. I complained more. He marched me back about 20 more metres. To a point it was a rather simple 3 point chip just outside our 22. The lad missed his kick wide of the post and, whilst feeling a bit of a ***, I was as vindicated ***. Was all I could do not to say to the ref "perhaps you should have bloody kicked it too..." but I was over it by this point.

Good chirp!

 

[The5thOfficial]

Ok so again you still haven't got point.

1. They had similar reviews in papers in 2013 and 2009. In fact 2009 was probably the most positive. But again that isn't overthinking just straight forward. Yes alot of social media has praise and others the same as most here saying. It was good but could've been better. Just I've seen on Social Media Elvis is still alive so like that doesn't make it bang on.

2. Again what has been so bile. Alot think tour could've been better? Alot think alternatives were better?

3. On achievements many SH tours got similar results just they aren't classed as series as it may have been through Tri-Nations etc. Just you said and I quote "its more than any other team have managed against the ABs". So guess that statement again is wrong.

And I'm chilled just debating valid points. Like many here are but well all you can say is "overthinking" like what exactly is anyone over thinking. It seems it's all normal opinions

I disagree, I have got the point - my point is you overthinking.

!: So basically you agree with me then? How people interpret newspaper reviews and columns. Its a bit like beauty being in the eye of the beholder! I can assure you because I am a writer btw, that the Lions have been well written about in good terms on this occasion.

2: So, you haven't read any bile in these forums about Gatland? I don't know - overthinking, selective reading.... the list goes on. I'm not talking about 'constructive criticism' - I'm talking about nasty bile. Once again if I have to direct you to examples, you are not that clued up.

3: Maybe I wasn't clear, I'm sorry - of course I was referring to NH team tours against ABs as you probably well know.

 

[Ozzay]

Not always the case Osper......

In a cup final I was in, many moons ago, the ref missed a couple of major knock-ons that (as captain) I verbosely reminded him about. He proceeded to award a pen against me. I complained more. He marched me back about 20 more metres. To a point it was a rather simple 3 point chip just outside our 22. The lad missed his kick wide of the post and, whilst feeling a bit of a ***, I was as vindicated ***. Was all I could do not to say to the ref "perhaps you should have bloody kicked it too..." but I was over it by this point.

As a ref myself, always keep them on your side, whether we are right or wrong. Be going back along way otherwise lol

 

[munstermuffin]

I disagree, I have got the point - my point is you overthinking.

!: So basically you agree with me then? How people interpret newspaper reviews and columns. Its a bit like beauty being in the eye of the beholder! I can assure you because I am a writer btw, that the Lions have been well written about in good terms on this occasion.

2: So, you haven't read any bile in these forums about Gatland? I don't know - overthinking, selective reading.... the list goes on. I'm not talking about 'constructive criticism' - I'm talking about nasty bile. Once again if I have to direct you to examples, you are not that clued up.

3: Maybe I wasn't clear, I'm sorry - of course I was referring to NH team tours against ABs as you probably well know.

On 1. No I don't agree my point is it's thrown around as basically a nothing word. This tour has been praised no extra than the last 2.

2. I've read Gatland is bias, a poor selector, made errors in squad and plays poor brand. And has his favourites. There is strong evidence to support people's debates on that so that's not bile. Also the EJ and Schmidt could've done better. Again strong evidence backing that argument. So not bile just good debate.

3. Again NH tours England drew a tour under Woodword. But also its not a comparable thing as you've best of 4 Nations so that's not like for like

 

[Da Grappla]

It was a failure so disastrous, such a total wreckage...that all the rugby to come (EOTY included) until Six Nations 2018 kickoff is going to leave an aftertaste like you drank decaf with non fat milk.

Second rate stuff

 

[The5thOfficial]

On 1. No I don't agree my point is it's thrown around as basically a nothing word. This tour has been praised no extra than the last 2.

2. I've read Gatland is bias, a poor selector, made errors in squad and plays poor brand. And has his favourites. There is strong evidence to support people's debates on that so that's not bile. Also the EJ and Schmidt could've done better. Again strong evidence backing that argument. So not bile just good debate.

3. Again NH tours England drew a tour under Woodword. But also its not a comparable thing as you've best of 4 Nations so that's not like for like

!: Lol - LIke I said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Press, TV and social media LOVED the Lions this time round. You could 'taste' the love. Now read over this forum, and others and its like another world.

2: Your picking 'constructive criticism' which I tend to agree with, or welcome and ignoring the nasty stuff.

3: So tours occasionally get drawn!

My original point was that Gatland didn't do as badly as some of the bile throwers wanted or wished upon him.

Amen

 

[mania]

But still failed as
failed = Not reaching the objective

yes and ABs failed as well.
isnt that the point? Lions got a stalemate vs the ABs and fought them to a standstill

 

[The5thOfficial]

It was a failure so disastrous, such a total wreckage...that all the rugby to come (EOTY included) until Six Nations 2018 kickoff is going to leave an aftertaste like you drank decaf with non fat milk.

Second rate stuff

LOLOL