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Summer tours - England

Reiser99 said:
FH is also interesting. Suggests there is not much depth outside of Farrell, Ford, Smith, Umaga and Simmonds. I know Jones has suggested Atkinson at FH in the future, but I think that's it.
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Thats 5 fly halves...2 beat NZ in a World Cup semi and played in a world cup final...
1 is a young captain of a side that won the league and European cup with him at 10, and will probably win the league again, and the other two are young incredibly talented players, one of which is pulling up trees and should start in the summer.

Not really a bad position to be in.
 
Geordiefalcon said:
Thats 5 fly halves...2 beat NZ in a World Cup semi and played in a world cup final...
1 is a young captain of a side that won the league and European cup with him at 10, and will probably win the league again, and the other two are young incredibly talented players, one of which is pulling up trees and should start in the summer.

Not really a bad position to be in.
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Yeah I responded above, but should have clarified. Meant more across the country as a whole and in the premiership. Other positions have filler players who have potential. Here we literally have Umaga. Means at least 7 teams in the premiership don't really have a competitive fly half. You mentioned that Falcons need one in another thread and I was thinking there aren't many good FH's floating about who aren't contracted.
 
Yeah thats correct we have a young Irishman whos come through the club academy, and whos 25 now and just starting to put in a few decent performances. We do however have an very talented 20 year old coming through who went through the England ages groups and should get gametime next season.

For England i think we're in good shape if those 5 are available and the youngsters develop as we hope. Ford gets a lot of stick, but i rate him highly. Farrell im not a huge fan of really but clearly so many top class coaches do so what do i know.

Smith is the one for me...looks top class in the making.
 
Reiser99 said:
Yeah I responded above, but should have clarified. Meant more across the country as a whole and in the premiership. Other positions have filler players who have potential. Here we literally have Umaga. Means at least 7 teams in the premiership don't really have a competitive fly half. You mentioned that Falcons need one in another thread and I was thinking there aren't many good FH's floating about who aren't contracted.
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Or have up and comers not ready yet (Atkinson, Smith, Bailey etc) or overseas / older players.
Eg at Bath we've got Priestland, Cipriani, Schoemann and Bailey; of whom only Schoemann could be considered "not competitive".
Worcester have Duncan Wier and Finn Smith - neither of whom are "not competitive", Wasps also have Charlie Atkinson in the pipeline.
Newcastle have Toby Flood, LIrish have Paddy Jackson, Saints have Dan Biggar...

Of the Premiership + Saracens; Exeter (J Simmonds), Quins (M Smith) and Gloucester (L Evans) are the only teams without a capped FH.
I'd argue that out of 13 clubs, only Newcastle and Gloucester "do'nt really have a competitive fly half"
 
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I think when you listen to Jones's comments on this squad, he says the following: "We'll be watching closely. It's their opportunity to put their foot forward".

I assume that means that there's a fair few in their who probably have an outside chance of being picked but it's likely won't be picked for the next squad announcement. I have a feeling Ewels, Underhill and Genge are in there to see who could be captain for the tour.

Spencer/Robson are most likely in there to see who he takes potentially, maybe they are competing against each other for a spot? Or maybe Robson is also in their for captaincy? i do doubt that though
 
The tricky thing there is that I'd like to see us prioritise giving game time to Obano and Ben Curry which won't happen if Genge or Underhill are captain.

I don't really rate Ewels that highly but given how thin on the ground our second row options for this tour are, he's the only guaranteed starter that's not blocking anyone I want to see instead.
 
Which Tyler said:
Or have up and comers not ready yet (Atkinson, Smith, Bailey etc) or overseas / older players.
Eg at Bath we've got Priestland, Cipriani, Schoemann and Bailey; of whom only Schoemann could be considered "not competitive".
Worcester have Duncan Wier and Finn Smith - neither of whom are "not competitive", Wasps also have Charlie Atkinson in the pipeline.
Newcastle have Toby Flood, LIrish have Paddy Jackson, Saints have Dan Biggar...

Of the Premiership + Saracens; Exeter (J Simmonds), Quins (M Smith) and Gloucester (L Evans) are the only teams without a capped FH.
I'd argue that out of 13 clubs, only Newcastle and Gloucester "do'nt really have a competitive fly half"
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Again probably should have been clearer. Meant a competitive English FH who could be picked.

Exeter, Quins, Leicester, Wasps + Sarries (when they come back up) Do have someone who could have been in this squad.

Possibly Worcester with Shillcock, Saints with Grayson or Saints with Hodgson could have someone filling a place until semis/final are over.

Bath, Bristol, Gloucester, LI, Sale - don't really have any competitive English FH's.

Yes there are a few younger ones, but for me compared to other positions FH seems to be lacking competitive English players.

Btw this isn't some nationalistic campaign where English FH's should be put first. It's more looking at the state of English rugby and the development of players in a certain position.
 
Then I think you're still being harsh.
Harsh to consider Cipriani uncompetitive, harsh to discount the 3 FHs likely to be busy with the U20s, and harsh to expect a club to have a senior FH actively challenging the likes of Biggar, Wier or Jackson.

I understand your point, I just disagree that England doesn't have much depth at FH - we have 2 50+ cap internationals who will be fine beyond the next RWC, a 3rd international quality player who largely missed the boat due to the indiscretions of youth, a 4th who just wasn't as consistent as the other 3, a 5th international quality FH who's on his last legs as a pro, the 3 youngsters unavailable due to club commitments the 1 youngster included, and the 3 youngsters who still qualify for U20s rugby.
That's 12 FHs, with 3 in their 30s, 2 established options in their late 20s, 4 in their early 20s and 3 more in the U20s (all at clubs where they're currently learning from senior internationals).
I see that as good depth and a good age distribution.

The positions that are more competitive are few, and generally challenging to 2 places in a XV (lock, flank, wing). Just as a random example - who are we talking about as 12th choice prop, on either side?
I'm far more worried about depth at 12 and 9 - but then, I'm also worried about quality at the top for those positions.
 
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Which Tyler said:
Then I think you're still being harsh.
Harsh to consider Cipriani uncompetitive, harsh to discount the 3 FHs likely to be busy with the U20s, and harsh to expect a club to have a senior FH actively challenging the likes of Biggar, Wier or Jackson.

I understand your point, I just disagree that England doesn't have much depth at FH - we have 2 50+ cap internationals who will be fine beyond the next RWC, a 3rd international quality player who largely missed the boat due to the indiscretions of youth, a 4th who just wasn't as consistent as the other 3, a 5th international quality FH who's on his last legs as a pro, the 3 youngsters unavailable due to club commitments the 1 youngster included, and the 3 youngsters who still qualify for U20s rugby.
That's 12 FHs, with 3 in their 30s, 2 established options in their late 20s, 4 in their early 20s and 3 more in the U20s (all at clubs where they're currently learning from senior internationals).
I see that as good depth and a good age distribution.

The positions that are more competitive are few, and generally challenging to 2 places in a XV (lock, flank, wing). Just as a random example - who are we talking about as 12th choice prop, on either side?
I'm far more worried about depth at 12 and 9 - but then, I'm also worried about quality at the top for those positions.
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fair enough, you make a good point there.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Kamikaze twins mk.2
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Yes, but then we're not really seeing anything different. Ben is also a slightly different type of player to Tom and is more of a specialist 7 IMO.

I'd rather see Hill, Martin or maybe Reid at 6 with Ben getting all three games at 7. Willis or Dombrandt at 8.
 
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Some players there
 

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