Summer tours - England

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Wants leadership in squad but then appoints Farrell as captain. Yeah great decision.

 

[BPM]

I am not a fan of Farrell and absolutely not a fan of him being England captain. However, there is no doubt that he is a leader and is influential. There are so many coaches and players that have spoken about his leadership skills (not just from England or Saracens) that it can't be everyone blowing smoke up his backside.

I think the key thing here is that being 'a leader' and being the captain in rugby aren't necessarily the same thing. In our sport, the captain's rapport with the referee is essential. Farrell doesn't have this and if anything irritates most refs to the point that it works against us.

Eddie is hardly the first coach to want players to follow his gameplan. Every team in world rugby has fans clamouring for certain players who the coach doesn't pick.

I don't think you can base a whole argument on Care and Brown (and that's coming from a Quins fan).

We've had leadership issues pretty much since winning the World Cup in 2003 so I don't think you can blame Eddie Jones for that. Arguably our best captain since 2003 was Hartley and he was hardly met with universal approval. I thought Robshaw was a good captain on the whole, but his record will be forever tainted (unfairly IMO) by the call to kick to the corner.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wants leadership in squad but then appoints Farrell as captain. Yeah great decision.

Yep, but what other credible candidates were there? I mean anything other than unproven might possibly be of the right stuff gambles?

People with the spiky attitude of Brown and Farrell are necessities (leaders within the group if you must) but that doesn't equate to captaincy material. Hartley was different in that he had the Saints captaincy experience banked and by all accounts was a very good people person.

Leadership wise I don't think Jones has got the most out of what's been available to him, a definite failing. But he's also not had a great deal to work with which seems to be more of a systemic issue.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I am not a fan of Farrell and absolutely not a fan of him being England captain. However, there is no doubt that he is a leader and is influential. There are so many coaches and players that have spoken about his leadership skills (not just from England or Saracens) that it can't be everyone blowing smoke up his backside.

I think the key thing here is that being 'a leader' and being the captain in rugby aren't necessarily the same thing. In our sport, the captain's rapport with the referee is essential. Farrell doesn't have this and if anything irritates most refs to the point that it works against us.

Eddie is hardly the first coach to want players to follow his gameplan. Every team in world rugby has fans clamouring for certain players who the coach doesn't pick.

I don't think you can base a whole argument on Care and Brown (and that's coming from a Quins fan).

We've had leadership issues pretty much since winning the World Cup in 2003 so I don't think you can blame Eddie Jones for that. Arguably our best captain since 2003 was Hartley and he was hardly met with universal approval. I thought Robshaw was a good captain on the whole, but his record will be forever tainted (unfairly IMO) by the call to kick to the corner.

At no other point since the world cup have we had so much talent available. This could be the makings of a golden generation of English rugby but it doesn't feel like it at all. We are still flaky and it feels like squad development has stalled since Curry and Underhill became regulars, that itself was forced by England stalling in the past and Jones steadfastly refusing to recognise a problem until it became absolutely embarrassing for us.

 

[BPM]

No doubt we have stalled post World Cup, but it's a little early to deem everything a failure.

As Old Hooker said - who are the obvious leaders that are being overlooked?

As I've already said, I am not a fan of Farrell as captain, but I recognise that the choices are limited.

Players who captain their sides at club level like Launchbury, Ewels or Wilson are not first choice in their positions. Itoje often gets touted as next England captain but he's not really shown the leadership qualities I'd expect. Certainly not in an obvious way anyway.

 

[Geordie]

I do agree, Im not seeing Itoje become the Captain in the making i thought he would when he first came through.

Theres not a huge number of stand out captains.

Farrell will continue unless say a Ted Hill, makes the 6 spot his own...

 

[Welsh Exile]

I could see farmer boy Johnny Hill being a good captain in the future.

As BPM correctly said, there's leaders and captains. Main thing you need from your captain is to be able to communicate with the ref well. You can have leaders all across the park.

It'll probably be Curry though seeing as he's still young and is the lead by example type in a similar mould that Warburton was for us. He, like Sam, comes across as a very likeable bloke so can see refs getting on well with him.

 

[JG-21]

Curry was excellent against Bristol, played brilliantly and was in constant positive contact with the ref.

 

[Geordie]

I dont think many would have an issue with Tom Curry as Captain. One of the first names on the team sheet aswell...

 

[BPM]

Exactly. Maybe not today, but building a bit or experience captaining Sale will really help to make him an ideal candidate.

Underhill also comes across very well, but I don't think he's as much of a guaranteed pick as Curry and unless he's captaining Bath, it's a bit of a stretch.

 

[Reiser99]

While I agree there aren't any clear alternative options either due to lack of experience or not 1st choice in their position etc..., Farrell has been shown up as a poor captain. Even when England were doing well he didn't look like a good captain. His relationships with the refs has never been good and even when he's polite he doesn't seem to have the ability to influence refs the way AWJ or other captains might. However, my biggest issue is the number of times England have been losing and their tactics aren't working and then nothing changes. If anything they double down and hope that their plan will work eventually. When England have been struggling they have no clear leaders willing to change tactics and try something different. I think this is a combination of Farrell being a poor leader and very robotic when it comes to following tactics (numerous people have cited the support his has at Saracens outside him with the likes of Goode being more creative) and Jones wanting players to stick to his tactics (I'm sure I've heard of new players showing initiative who have then been dropped for not sticking to the game plan). Personally I feel Farrell was the loudest voice supporting Jones' plans under the guise of 'motivating'. "Come on lads, remember what we did in training etc..." rather than genuinely leading and adapting to the situation.

Basically my point is that Farrell leading England has been shown convincingly not to work, especially when England are losing. So even if there are no obvious alternatives someone else needs to be given a go, because we know who doesn't work. Might as well take a risk and try to find someone who does work.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Remember saying during his first 6N campaign that Curry would be captain eventually

The issue is that I can't see EJ stripping Farrell of captaincy

 

[Welsh Exile]

Exactly. Maybe not today, but building a bit or experience captaining Sale will really help to make him an ideal candidate.

Underhill also comes across very well, but I don't think he's as much of a guaranteed pick as Curry and unless he's captaining Bath, it's a bit of a stretch.

Underhill I feel a bit better qualified to speak on as an Ospreys fan and while he too seems like a good bloke I'm less sure about his captaining ability (not to say he wouldn't be a good captain but just a gut feeling)

He's a leader, though, for sure. Underhill has always seemed that type of player you don't want to put too much on his plate as well and,imo, you should just let him be his destructive self and lead by example. As you rightly point out as well, with your strength in depth, he's not necessarily 100% guaranteed to start (which is mad to me as he's world class)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I dont think many would have an issue with Tom Curry as Captain. One of the first names on the team sheet aswell...

There's also all the off field stuff with the squad during the build up and all the media / commercial commitments too. There's a lot more to it than match day.

Curry might well be the best option although always wary of overloading 'best' players. Assuming Jones is going to change horses the Autumn is the time to do it - the countdown to Fra 23 will be beginning and we've identified that there are no ideal candidates so the anointed one will need time to figure out the role.

 

[ncurd]

Didn't Farrell just kinda get the job because Hartley got injured and never came back. I never got the impression he was supposed to be permanent just a stop gap who never had it reviewed properly when Hartley did have to stop.

 

[Geordie]

So what wingers would you guys select? Theres some options...!

 

[BPM]

I would have liked to have seen Odogwu but as he's no longer available, I'd be looking at the following:

Hassell-Collins
Loader
Muir
Thorley
Radwan

Muir has really won me over whereas Cokanasiga has really dropped off badly IMO.

Thorley has been out for ages otherwise I imagine he'd be higher up my list.

 

[Geordie]

What about Slightholme BPM? i rate him very highly...fast, scores tries, strong defensively...and aggressive.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

No arguments with the above,

Muir was in the latest Team GB 7s training squad, though, so might be in Tokyo (if it goes ahead) - if he's out then Sleightholme is in, for me
Tbh I'd have Sleightholme over one of Thorley/Radwan

 

[BPM]

On recent form I would have Sleightholme too. Not sure how I forgot him TBH?

Muir is an interesting one. He's bigger than the majority of our wing options which makes him a good alternative to Cokanasiga. Totally different types of player, but similar in the sense of offering a more 'powerful' option.

I think the Olympics is going to get canned but who knows?