Spring Tour: New Zealand vs Ireland - 2nd Test. (16/6/2012, 07:35 GMT)

[Darwin]

Ben Franks is much better on the loose-head side than the tight-head, though he is certainly not the worst tight-head prop. Even though tight-head is not his best position, he is probably still our 2nd best 3, however he could well be over-taken with the next year by the likes of Tameifuna, Afeaki, or Faumuina.

 

[dasNdanger]

Great game, just wish I had stayed awake until the end but I conked out in the 65th, just finished watching this morning. A thrill to the end, though I must admit to rooting for Ireland there in the last few moments of the game. They deserved the win because if they hadn't showed up as they did, this game would have been crap. Instead, they put fire in it and brought the challenge to NZ, and in the end it was just Carter's boot that saved the day for NZ.

As far as McCaw goes, yeah, not a great match. However, in choosing him or not for next week, they'll take into consideration his ability as a leader and decision-maker. Does his presence spur the team on, or drag it down? The spirit a man brings to the team can, at times, be just as important as his ability on the pitch. McCaw knows he didn't deserve that win tonight, and so if he is chosen for next week's squad, I'm pretty sure he'll be bringing his A game along with him, if he's still got it. But that's for others to decide, and for us to just ***** and moan about outcomes.


das

 

[coonor]

Pressure will be on both teams next week, not only will NZ want revenge but Ireland and the Irish media and fans now know that Ireland can beat the AB. It was a great test match and Ireland can be proud. Is this the turning point for Ireland? Or is it just another individual great performance?

Back to the game, I though Ireland looked very dangerous when O'Gara and Sexton were playing side by side, the question is can they start a game together and play like that. Sexton was superb all match some of his tackling was immense. O'Brien was also very good, he has really come back into form. Healy had another good game, I don't think anyone can deny that he Atleast deserves a bench spot on the Lions tour if we go by current evidence. Ryan had another fantastic game, he looks to have some great leadership quality. Kearney was good again and McFadden looked sharp. Best really is however our unsung hero, he is a traditional dog of a player, clearing up scraps, attacking rucks and solid in the line out. Heaslip is also playing well, he looks to have bulked up abit and seems to be carrying more.

kidney used the bench a lot more wisely in this match, the introduction of O'Mahony was very good, he looked great coming off the bench, Reddan was also very sharp and even O'Callaghan added some bulk. Our pack looks to be in much better shape and following this tour we should have a lot more options. We appear to have both McLaughlin and O'Mahony who are more than competent at this level and with Henry playing well for Ulster it would be good to see if he could make the step up. Our options in the second row also seem good and the blooding on Fitzpatrick has given us another player to develop, hopefully by next 6N we will have more than one international standard tight head prop.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'm getting quite annoyed that Kidney wont use Sean Cronin properly. He's the most dynamic hooker in the British Isles and should be thrown on with 20 minutes left to cause havoc. Yes Boss played well, but having Cronin running hard at a tired team with 14 players is the way to go about looking for the final score.

 

[nickdnz]

A lot to say about this game, but easiest to do it through rating players.

1. Tony Woodcock: Actually thought he had a good game. His defense was very solid and he scrummaged well, especially with Owen Franks on the field. Made it to plenty of rucks and malls. 7/10
2. Andrew Hore: Was busy at breakdown but didn't have a huge impact. Wouldn't have mind seeing Elliot have a crack towards the end. 6/10
3. Owen Franks: Despite what McCaw says about looseforwards not contributing as much in the scrums in the last few minutes, Owen Franks was clearly dominant before he came off and was really missed. 7/10.
4. Brodie Retallick: Made it to plenty of breakdowns but didn't have a huge impact. Solid at all his core jobs and was good in defense but not really showing what he is capable of. 6.5/10.
5. Sam Whitelock: Pretty average day for Sam too. Much like Retallick, he wasn't overly impressive, but was alright at his core jobs. 6.5/10
6. Adam Thomson: Actually did okay. Still lacks in physicality but worked hard. Behind Vito and probably Messam in my opinion. 6/10
7. Richie McCaw: The problem is looking at his stats, he wasn't THAT bad. Lead in running metres out of ANY player on the field (though had twice as many runs as any other player). With that being said, he still dropped too many balls and it's the second game he's done it. With Cane looking good, I'm totally convinced McCaw needs to move to blindside and work on bulking up a bit. For his standards - 5.5/10.
8. Kieran Read: As always one of the All Blacks best forwards. When he came off it was very noticable. 7/10.
9. Aaron Smith: Scored a nice try but sometimes I think he went blindside when there were better options avalible. Ireland worked hard to pressure the forwards and the rush made him a bit less effective. That being said I still think he looked pretty classy. 7.5/10.
10. Daniel Carter: Had little room to opperate and got limited go forward ball. Was pretty well contained in terms of running but his defense was as good as ever (jackels better than any 10 in the world) and his drop goal won the match in the last minute. Showed why he is the best. 8/10.
11. Julian Savea: Very hard to be critical when he got very little ball. Looking at the stats, what very limited ball he did have he actually did very well, but wasn't really used much in this game. Hard to criticise him as the game didn't really give him any oppertunities. 6.5/10
12. Sonny Bill Williams: I defended him last week and I don't think he was terrible but I think when comparing him to Nonu, Nonu would have been more effective in this match. SBW didn't really show much and I think was was considerably less effective than last week. 5.5/10
13. Conrad Smith: Defended well as always. 6.5/10
14. Zac Guildford: When ever I say he's not good, darwin always jumps to his rescue, but he is just such an average player. He got one nice turnover but otherwise was pretty average. Like Savea was given limited oppertunities, but would be well behind other for me. Still - 6/10
15. Israel Dagg: Once again, good for running metres and pretty good clarence kicking (although not the rocket boot I was hoping for), but his yellow card could have cost us the match. Probably 10 incidents in the game that were as bad if not worse by other players, but most were more subtle. By his standards - 5.5/10

16. Hika Elliot: N/A
17. Ben Franks: Had a bit of a shocker in the scrums. Like someone else mentioned, when two props are allowed in a 23 man sqad, he's going to have a very hard time getting a spot. Looseforwards may have had a big impact in the poor scrummaging, but only they'll know how much. B.Franks needed to do better. 4.5/10.
18. Ali Williams: Looking at his match stats on two different sites it's hard to really criticize him. Still don't think he was great, but wasn't as bad as some others. My big criticism is that he only made it to two rucks/mauls, which is too little for the 16 minutes he was on for.
19. Sam Cane: Good debut. Very good to be honest. Carried effectivly and didn't struggle with the physicality. Didn't turnover much but worked very hard in the breakdown with some others. 7.5/10.
20. Piri Weepu: Delivery is still too slow. Can't be criticized for Carter 2nd drom goal attempt as Nigel Owen was in the way (as fricking usual), but still didn't show me why he is in there. Not a terrible game, just not one that installs confidence. On the plus he is looking much slimmer. 6/20.
21. Aaron Cruden: N/A
22. Ben Smith: Terrible player. Had a shocking game. Pretty much could have cost the All Blacks the match. Did everything wrong. Nothing right. Waste of space. Should be banned for life. Boo. -10/10 Suck it Darwin.

 

[Mablung]

Any of you been more impressed with Sexton in an Ireland shirt before? I'm struggling to recall a match that stands out for me more than this one. Albeit maybe the class of the opposition is skewing my thoughts on it.

 

[Mablung]

Pressure will be on both teams next week, not only will NZ want revenge but Ireland and the Irish media and fans now know that Ireland can beat the AB. It was a great test match and Ireland can be proud. Is this the turning point for Ireland? Or is it just another individual great performance?

Exactly what worries me. I just don't any confidence that Ireland will kick on from this like I would hope. I think Ireland have the potential to tear up the 6 Nations annually and to be competitive enough with South Africa and Australia that victories over them wouldn't have to be heralded as "famous" anymore.

I don't see it happening next week but I pray I get to see a victory over the All Blacks in the next few years with this core of players.

 

[coonor]

Just wondering, is it not possible for BOD still to play NZ next year in the Autumn International or if he's still going, which wouldn't surprise me, the year after.

 

[Darwin]

A lot to say about this game, but easiest to do it through rating players.

1. Tony Woodcock: Actually thought he had a good game. His defense was very solid and he scrummaged well, especially with Owen Franks on the field. Made it to plenty of rucks and malls. 7/10
2. Andrew Hore: Was busy at breakdown but didn't have a huge impact. Wouldn't have mind seeing Elliot have a crack towards the end. 6/10
3. Owen Franks: Despite what McCaw says about looseforwards not contributing as much in the scrums in the last few minutes, Owen Franks was clearly dominant before he came off and was really missed. 7/10.
4. Brodie Retallick: Made it to plenty of breakdowns but didn't have a huge impact. Solid at all his core jobs and was good in defense but not really showing what he is capable of. 6.5/10.
5. Sam Whitelock: Pretty average day for Sam too. Much like Retallick, he wasn't overly impressive, but was alright at his core jobs. 6.5/10
6. Adam Thomson: Actually did okay. Still lacks in physicality but worked hard. Behind Vito and probably Messam in my opinion. 6/10
7. Richie McCaw: The problem is looking at his stats, he wasn't THAT bad. Lead in running metres out of ANY player on the field (though had twice as many runs as any other player). With that being said, he still dropped too many balls and it's the second game he's done it. With Cane looking good, I'm totally convinced McCaw needs to move to blindside and work on bulking up a bit. For his standards - 5.5/10.
8. Kieran Read: As always one of the All Blacks best forwards. When he came off it was very noticable. 7/10.
9. Aaron Smith: Scored a nice try but sometimes I think he went blindside when there were better options avalible. Ireland worked hard to pressure the forwards and the rush made him a bit less effective. That being said I still think he looked pretty classy. 7.5/10.
10. Daniel Carter: Had little room to opperate and got limited go forward ball. Was pretty well contained in terms of running but his defense was as good as ever (jackels better than any 10 in the world) and his drop goal won the match in the last minute. Showed why he is the best. 8/10.
11. Julian Savea: Very hard to be critical when he got very little ball. Looking at the stats, what very limited ball he did have he actually did very well, but wasn't really used much in this game. Hard to criticise him as the game didn't really give him any oppertunities. 6.5/10
12. Sonny Bill Williams: I defended him last week and I don't think he was terrible but I think when comparing him to Nonu, Nonu would have been more effective in this match. SBW didn't really show much and I think was was considerably less effective than last week. 5.5/10
13. Conrad Smith: Defended well as always. 6.5/10
14. Zac Guildford: When ever I say he's not good, darwin always jumps to his rescue, but he is just such an average player. He got one nice turnover but otherwise was pretty average. Like Savea was given limited oppertunities, but would be well behind other for me. Still - 6/10
15. Israel Dagg: Once again, good for running metres and pretty good clarence kicking (although not the rocket boot I was hoping for), but his yellow card could have cost us the match. Probably 10 incidents in the game that were as bad if not worse by other players, but most were more subtle. By his standards - 5.5/10

16. Hika Elliot: N/A
17. Ben Franks: Had a bit of a shocker in the scrums. Like someone else mentioned, when two props are allowed in a 23 man sqad, he's going to have a very hard time getting a spot. Looseforwards may have had a big impact in the poor scrummaging, but only they'll know how much. B.Franks needed to do better. 4.5/10.
18. Ali Williams: Looking at his match stats on two different sites it's hard to really criticize him. Still don't think he was great, but wasn't as bad as some others. My big criticism is that he only made it to two rucks/mauls, which is too little for the 16 minutes he was on for.
19. Sam Cane: Good debut. Very good to be honest. Carried effectivly and didn't struggle with the physicality. Didn't turnover much but worked very hard in the breakdown with some others. 7.5/10.
20. Piri Weepu: Delivery is still too slow. Can't be criticized for Carter 2nd drom goal attempt as Nigel Owen was in the way (as fricking usual), but still didn't show me why he is in there. Not a terrible game, just not one that installs confidence. On the plus he is looking much slimmer. 6/20.
21. Aaron Cruden: N/A
22. Ben Smith: Terrible player. Had a shocking game. Pretty much could have cost the All Blacks the match. Did everything wrong. Nothing right. Waste of space. Should be banned for life. Boo. -10/10 Suck it Darwin.

Agree with most again. I would actually have given Thomson a slightly higher mark, as I was really impressed with the way he tightened up his game, and actually made some good yards close to the breakdown (the most effective AB's forward in that area in my opinion). Again the only area I disagree on is your ratings of the wings. You are probably just doing this to wind me up, but here goes:

I'm not going to suggest Guildford had a great game - he was solid again like last weekend. He had a massive work-rate again, was always looking for work, forced a crucial turnover, and didn't make any errors. I don't necessarily think a 6/10 is a bad rating for Guildford, but if you are going to give Guildford a 6, I'm not sure how you would give Savea a 6.5?!?!?! I'm glad you have acknowledged it is harder to be critical of a wing when they receive very little ball (though does this only apply to Hurricanes players? ), but Savea had a pretty poor game. I'm sure if Guildford had played as poorly as Savea you would have given him a -5, and suggested he wasn't good enough to play club rugby! He spent most of the time standing out on his wing, and though he made the advantage line the 3 times he ran the ball, he lost it once in contact, and looked very insecure under the high ball: spilling one, and letting one bounce. He wasn't as bad as some people have suggested, but he certainly didn't have a game that warranted a 6.5 rating. Other sites I've seen have him rated as a 3, and a 4 - I'm not saying I necessarily agree with all of the ratings on these sites (indeed I think in general your ratings give a more accurate reflection on the game), but I think they they are closer to the money in this case. This is not to say I wouldn't start him next week - I definitely would (and would still pick him over Guildford if I had to chose between them), but I don't think there is any doubt Guildford had a stronger game than Savea this week.

Oh, I'm not sure why you put a 'dash' before your 10/10 rating for Ben Smith, it was very inconsistent with the way you presented the rest of your ratings. For shame. Suck it Nick.

 

[William18]

He's had a poor couple of games and players should be picked on form not 8 years past. Question is, would the replacement be a positive step. I say yes and, considering the series is won, what is the risk? Worse case he has a bad game and you bring McCaw off the bench. He's getting on a bit now, have to trust the successors sooner rather than later

No they should not be picked on form. They should be picked on a range of factors among which include form, experience and influence on the team etc. The fact is that Sam Cane can barely even get a start for the Chiefs. So I say the replacement would not be a positive step. Cane was good last night but 40 minutes of play is not enough to unseat an All Blacks captain. It's not worth the public outcry or the unsettling of the team to drop such a crucial. players. Players who have done it in the past should be able to do it again. Need I remind anyone how well McCaw played in the semi and in the final last year? If two bad games is all it takes to get dropped (for players who neither have the skill or ability to start at super rugby level) then players will be almost constantly looking over their shoulder. Changes in the team will occur so often that there will be no continuity and players will be in continued fear that if they play poorly it will be their last. That is no way to select a team.

Dropping McCaw would be the worst selection decision in the history of NZ rugby. Resting McCaw from the 3rd test, on the other hand, could be justified but I think would show disrespect to Ireland who pushed us so close this week.

 

[austingtir]

He knows Ben Smith was better than Dagg just didnt want to admit it ; )

I still think both the franks brothers are overrated we have other options and ben certainly should not be on the bench. Owen is good enough but i think we can try someone else on the bench for the third match. Why are these two always picked as a pair? I know ben covers both sides but jeez. Cant wait for tameifuna to get a bit older.

I would start richie at 6 next week if he has to be on the park with read and cane. Thompson is far more effective off the bench.

And i dont agree that Owen was dominant, the irish were not going in reverse gear like we were later in the match. He certainly was good enough though. Im a bit perplexed how you rated him as high as woodcock. Woodcock was absolutley outstanding in a beaten scrum.

 

[Darwin]

He knows Ben Smith was better than Dagg just didnt want to admit it ; )

I still think both the franks brothers are overrated we have other options and ben certainly should not be on the bench. Owen is good enough but i think we can try someone else on the bench for the third match. Why are these two always picked as a pair? I know ben covers both sides but jeez. Cant wait for tameifuna to get a bit older.

I would start richie at 6 next week if he has to be on the park with read and cane. Thompson is far more effective off the bench.

And i dont agree that Owen was dominant, the irish were not going in reverse gear like we were later in the match. He certainly was good enough though. Im a bit perplexed how you rated him as high as woodcock. Woodcock was absolutley outstanding in a beaten scrum.

Who though? We need someone who can cover both sides of the scrum adequately, and Ben Franks is the only one who can do that in the current AB's setup. If Charlie Faumuina was fit he would be an option, but I don't think he would necessarily be any better than Ben Franks (indeed I would prefer Franks). As has been mentioned, when they eventually change to an 8-man bench at international level Ben Franks' versatility will become less important, so he will find it harder to get into the match-day 23 (especially if Afeaki, Tameifuna, Smith, Faumuina etc continue to develop....)

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

He knows Ben Smith was better than Dagg just didnt want to admit it ; )

I still think both the franks brothers are overrated we have other options and ben certainly should not be on the bench. Owen is good enough but i think we can try someone else on the bench for the third match. Why are these two always picked as a pair? I know ben covers both sides but jeez. Cant wait for tameifuna to get a bit older.

I would start richie at 6 next week if he has to be on the park with read and cane. Thompson is far more effective off the bench.

And i dont agree that Owen was dominant, the irish were not going in reverse gear like we were later in the match. He certainly was good enough though. Im a bit perplexed how you rated him as high as woodcock. Woodcock was absolutley outstanding in a beaten scrum.

Didn't we win a tight head straight away??

 

[irelandfan123]

Just wondering, is it not possible for BOD still to play NZ next year in the Autumn International or if he's still going, which wouldn't surprise me, the year after.

I don't think O'Driscoll will retire till he has beaten the all blacks

 

[dullonien]

I don't think O'Driscoll will retire till he has beaten the all blacks

And here comes the captain down the tunnel a few minutes after the rest of his team. The 76 year old has said that this is the year Ireland are going to beat the All Blacks, so that he can finally retire.

 

[RyotoTheDragon]

And here comes the captain down the tunnel a few minutes after the rest of his team. The 76 year old has said that this is the year Ireland are going to beat the All Blacks, so that he can finally retire.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:!!!

 

[irelandfan123]

And here comes the captain down the tunnel a few minutes after the rest of his team. The 76 year old has said that this is the year Ireland are going to beat the All Blacks, so that he can finally retire.

Hopefully not lol

Another thing, Drico and D'Arcy played well today, showing his worth again D'Arcy is, thought is was much more solid than earls and Drico

EDIT: Just found this, is it of any worth or are we clutching at straws

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

When you lose your grip you don't stop pushing. The scrum was purposely wheeled around by Ireland, honestly, just look at their feet. They're shuffling sideways from the get go.

It's clutching at straws quite a bit, I think. At the end of they day there are things that both teams could've/shouldn't have been penalised for. As I noted earlier, in the last fifteen the Irish kept sending a player far through and beyond the ruck to block NZ defenders, almost blatantly.

 

[nickdnz]

Agree with most again. I would actually have given Thomson a slightly higher mark, as I was really impressed with the way he tightened up his game, and actually made some good yards close to the breakdown (the most effective AB's forward in that area in my opinion). Again the only area I disagree on is your ratings of the wings. You are probably just doing this to wind me up, but here goes:

I'm not going to suggest Guildford had a great game - he was solid again like last weekend. He had a massive work-rate again, was always looking for work, forced a crucial turnover, and didn't make any errors. I don't necessarily think a 6/10 is a bad rating for Guildford, but if you are going to give Guildford a 6, I'm not sure how you would give Savea a 6.5?!?!?! I'm glad you have acknowledged it is harder to be critical of a wing when they receive very little ball (though does this only apply to Hurricanes players? ), but Savea had a pretty poor game. I'm sure if Guildford had played as poorly as Savea you would have given him a -5, and suggested he wasn't good enough to play club rugby! He spent most of the time standing out on his wing, and though he made the advantage line the 3 times he ran the ball, he lost it once in contact, and looked very insecure under the high ball: spilling one, and letting one bounce. He wasn't as bad as some people have suggested, but he certainly didn't have a game that warranted a 6.5 rating. Other sites I've seen have him rated as a 3, and a 4 - I'm not saying I necessarily agree with all of the ratings on these sites (indeed I think in general your ratings give a more accurate reflection on the game), but I think they they are closer to the money in this case. This is not to say I wouldn't start him next week - I definitely would (and would still pick him over Guildford if I had to chose between them), but I don't think there is any doubt Guildford had a stronger game than Savea this week.

Oh, I'm not sure why you put a 'dash' before your 10/10 rating for Ben Smith, it was very inconsistent with the way you presented the rest of your ratings. For shame. Suck it Nick.

Never!

I can see your point about Guildford and would agree that I may have been overly generous on Savea. That being said, I'm not overly fond of wingers who are out of position too often and Savea was constantly in position to recieve the last pass on the wing, which I actually value. But you're right, if Guildford played like Savea did I would be very critical.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

If the ball is not coming to you, you've got to go out of you way to make yourself busy.

Kahui or Jane would've been influential in last night's game compared to Savea.