Southern Kings Finished?

[Leinster Fan]

I know I am probably alone in this but I like the following format

Conference 1 6 South African Teams
Conference 2 4 Welsh and 2 Italian Teams
Conference 3 4 Irish and 2 Scottish Teams

Each Team plays the other 5 teams in their conference twice and the other 12 teams once.
This means that every team plays each over at least once. (the main issue with Super Rugby's conference system.

There will be 22 games in in the main league

Then have a 6 Team play off with the top 2 ranked teams getting bye's to the semi Finals.

There will be an extra 3 games maximum in the play off rounds. Meaning a min and max of 22 and 25 games.

European Qualification would be the top 3 teams in Conference 2 and 3 until such point as the South African Teams area allowed in.

That could work. Would swap the Scots and Italians though, much more balanced that way. The only other issue is Euro qualification, it'd have to go to the teams with the most points regardless of conference.

 

[mdaclarke]

That could work. Would swap the Scots and Italians though, much more balanced that way. The only other issue is Euro qualification, it'd have to go to the teams with the most points regardless of conference.

I thought there were stronger links between Scotland and Ireland than between Scotland and Wales

 

[dullonien]

I thought there were stronger links between Scotland and Ireland than between Scotland and Wales

Not much in it either way I'd say.

Personally not overly keen on the idea of 6 SA sides. Feels like it skews the competition a little too much. 4 SA sides feels about right.

I remember Anayi suggesting the sweet spot for the league would be 16 teams with a format that reduced the number of games overall thus minimising clashes with international windows.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I thought there were stronger links between Scotland and Ireland than between Scotland and Wales

Not a huge gap either way. The gap in team quality is much more significant than any links between the various unions/countries.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I know I am probably alone in this but I like the following format

Conference 1 6 South African Teams
Conference 2 4 Welsh and 2 Italian Teams
Conference 3 4 Irish and 2 Scottish Teams

Each Team plays the other 5 teams in their conference twice and the other 12 teams once.
This means that every team plays each over at least once. (the main issue with Super Rugby's conference system.

There will be 22 games in in the main league

Then have a 6 Team play off with the top 2 ranked teams getting bye's to the semi Finals.

There will be an extra 3 games maximum in the play off rounds. Meaning a min and max of 22 and 25 games.

European Qualification would be the top 3 teams in Conference 2 and 3 until such point as the South African Teams area allowed in.

I can tell you now that South Africa will be opposed to this idea. The 3 conference system just doesn't work, Super Rugby is the prime example of that. Why would we go into a tournament that has this system, when we were in one where we saw how bad it is and hoe economically damaging it is for the teams.

If it's going to be 16 teams, it should be either 2 pools of 8 teams, or 4 pools of 4 teams.

if it's 2 pools of 8 teams then divide each country's team's evenly between the pools, all teams play the other teams in their pool home and away, and the teams in the other pool once. Then have the top 4 teams of either pool play QF, SF and a final.

If it's 4 pools. do the same as the 2 pools. Have the top 2 teams of each pool qualify for the QF

I know the issue will be the amount of games being played, but there are various models to use to make it work and not put more strain on the teams. But a 3 conference model always have an uneven balance to it, and one or more teams always misses out unfairly.

 

[sugary tae]

In real terms conference 2 would be miles weaker than the other two

Leinster sharks bulls stormers (Lions a bit weaker at the mo I think) Munster Ulster Glasgow Edinburgh scarlets would Currently be the 8 teams fighting out for top 6 playoff places. Any conference system that doesn't Show that by the years end is bound to fail.

In fact if You put 4 Irish and 2 Italian teams in a conference that works out better . I agree you need to keep the derbies as they're the best attended and most interesting games. It's all about generating eyeballs.

 

[sugary tae]

The biggest issue with having just 2 pools is you'd automatically do away with several of the high value derbies. These Matches pay the bills in terms of attendance, advertising and tv. No one is going to care if you play a team from another country only once a season.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I don't see this working long term.

A competition where it's the main thing for the South African teams but a b team backup comp for Leinster and Munster isn't going to work.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't see this working long term.

A competition where it's the main thing for the South African teams but a b team backup comp for Leinster and Munster isn't going to work.

Well this is the short-term project. Who knows what will happen long term? Sure SA teams won't be part of the European Cup, but the possibility could be to include them later, or grow that tournament like the Pro12/14/16.

The matter at hand is to expand and include the PRO14 with it's current nations involved, and could be a stepping stone for more things to come.

I would be more worried as a Leinster/Munster/Ulster fan than with the inclusion of the big names from SA, that the Saffas playing in Ireland to return to their domestic teams and make the SA teams stronger. Which would mean the Irish teams will need to have even more backup...

 

[Redman7]

Has there ever been the suggestion that south Africa go it alone with a domestic league/Currie cup and the best teams each year qualify for the champions cup? Less travel and more meaningful derbies for south Africa plus money from champions cup. Champions cup gains more viewers/sponsorship and variety with quality teams. Downside side is maybe not enough money for south Africa from just the champions cup and no pro14. pro14 would lose out on money with the lose of the south Africans and fall further behind prem and top14.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I would be more worried as a Leinster/Munster/Ulster fan than with the inclusion of the big names from SA, that the Saffas playing in Ireland to return to their domestic teams and make the SA teams stronger. Which would mean the Irish teams will need to have even more backup...

You'd have to have some disposition to be worried as a Leinster fan in that case! Our last South African starter was Ollie le Roux!

 

[mdaclarke]

Has there ever been the suggestion that south Africa go it alone with a domestic league/Currie cup and the best teams each year qualify for the champions cup? Less travel and more meaningful derbies for south Africa plus money from champions cup. Champions cup gains more viewers/sponsorship and variety with quality teams. Downside side is maybe not enough money for south Africa from just the champions cup and no pro14. pro14 would lose out on money with the lose of the south Africans and fall further behind prem and top14.

I like this idea. Have a strong home and away Currie cup with 8 teams. Top 4 qualify for European Champions Cup, Bottom 4 qualify for European Challenge Cup.

 

[The Seeker]

If the South African teams leave Super Rugby it'll be like a kick in the nuts with steel plated boots. I've really enjoyed watching them play over the past three years that I've had access to Super Rugby on ESPN+.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Has there ever been the suggestion that south Africa go it alone with a domestic league/Currie cup and the best teams each year qualify for the champions cup? Less travel and more meaningful derbies for south Africa plus money from champions cup. Champions cup gains more viewers/sponsorship and variety with quality teams. Downside side is maybe not enough money for south Africa from just the champions cup and no pro14. pro14 would lose out on money with the lose of the south Africans and fall further behind prem and top14.

We will have a domestic competition. We've always had a domestic competition. The Currie Cup is the oldest domestic competition in the world.

But the thing is we don't have an agreement to play the Champions Cup. Only PRO14.

So unless the NH unions make another proposal for our inclusion, we only have bargaining power with the PRO14.

We are reliant on the NH nations and them having a good business relationship with SARU, and unlike the SANZAAR nations, there seems to be more openness to discuss ways to include SA in their tournaments. I like the idea, although I think it's a nice way for the NH players to get used to the SA conditions to play more regularly here.

You'd have to have some disposition to be worried as a Leinster fan in that case! Our last South African starter was Ollie le Roux!

Yeah I know, I was more leaning towards Munster and Ulster, but still.

If the South African teams leave Super Rugby it'll be like a kick in the nuts with steel plated boots. I've really enjoyed watching them play over the past three years that I've had access to Super Rugby on ESPN+.

That decision was made for us. It's already done, we are out of Super Rugby.

 

[mdaclarke]

There appears to be some push back from New Zealand Players to South Africa leaving.

 

[unrated]

There appears to be some push back from New Zealand Players to South Africa leaving.

Would love to read if you have any links for me.

 

[unrated]

It seems that the Corona virus pushed us out Super rugby sooner than Australia could do it themselves. I guess the virus swung the New Zealanders enough to side with the Aussies. Its a shame as I wanted to experience the joy of seeing the Super rugby trophy in a cabinet in Durban. So close... Yet so far... I might cry at some point. Also if we join pro 14 I look forward for the Sharks to put an end to Leinster dominance and become the Crusaders of the North

Media reports state it's a done deal. South Africa in Super rugby is no more. If we don't join pro 14 then we only play domestically as easy as that.

 

[mdaclarke]

Would love to read if you have any links for me.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

'It's going to be a dagger': Kiwi Super players on why New Zealand Rugby can't lose the Springboks

James Parsons and Tony Lamborn of the Blues, Bryn Hall of the Crusaders discussed on this week's Aotearoa Rugby Pod what would happen if South Africa's Super Rugby sides left for Europe.

www.rugbypass.com

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

From SR experience I believe we should stay away from more than 14 teams. In fact, it'd be better to go to 12. That for me is the magic number. It means all teams can play each other and its as likely to be strength vs strength as we're probably going to get. It also just becomes too many teams and casual fans probably can't be bothered to keep track of which teams is which and where from if more than 12 especially if the teams don't have any clout.

So IMO stay away from more than 12 teams and avoid the conference system. The conference system hurt SR as much as the actual # of teams maybe more than the #.

SA would love to have more than just 2 teams though. We have 5 very viable teams with a history of high level involvement, the Kings are a political must (and if the backroom could get sorted *could* become a powerhouse in their own right). Then there are the Griquas and Pumas who punch way above their weight. I suggest the Currie Cup of 8 teams be used as a promo-relegation tournament for entry into Pro1X with the bottom 4 SA teams entering a 2nd tier competition running parralel to Pro1X. In the same breath I'd say cull two teams from the old ProX both to keep that competition a premier one and in order to add numbers to the 2nd tier and make that one also viable. I don't know enough about the teams to comment yet but I've heard tell Wales cannot feasibly field 4 quality teams and Italy doesn't seem overly hot. So maybe something along the lines of:

Pro12:
Ireland top 4, SA top 4, Scotland top 2 & Wales top 2 = 12
My prelim rankings (1 Leinster, 2 Sharks, 3 Stormers, 4 Munster, 5 Bulls, 6 Edinburg, 7 Glasgow, 8 Ulster, 9 Cheetahs, 10 Connaght, 11 Ospreys, 12 Cardiff)

Not-quite-as-pro (Por?) 12:
Italy 2, Wales 2, SA bottom 4 (probably currently the Lions, Pumas, Griquas and Kings) = 8
This also allows room for further expansion without diluting the premier comp. Do Scotland and Italy want to develop more teams in the near future? If not, complete the roster of 12 with invitational sides. With SA there maybe it makes sense for Namibia, Zimbabwe, the Netherlands or Belgium to field a development(para-national) side each like what Argentina did with the Jaguares in the Currie Cup before they joined SR. Germany, Portugal, Spain? Speaking of Argentina, aren't they also now out in the cold? The Jaguares were muchos competitive towards the end.

 

[elavery]

The best arrangement is for the Pro14 to revert to Pro12, and South Africa to hold its own 8 team domestic competition perhaps including Argentina's Jaguares. The best four South African/Argentine teams then qualify for the European Rugby Champions Cup with the other four going into the Challenge Cup. In all honesty I think there is little interest in South Africa in playing Zebre, Dragons, Edinburgh, etc.