Southern Kings Finished?

[Kiwiwomble]

Reports now that the pro14 will become pro18. Not sure about this at all. Altough I like the idea of the south Africans in the comp, I think 18 teams altogether will be too many teams. With too big a gap in quality from the best to last.

Report: South African Super Rugby poised to join Pro14 by early 2021

South Africa's four Super Rugby sides - the Bulls, Lions, Sharks and Stormers - are reportedly set to join Europe's Pro14 competition by early next year.

www.rugbypass.com

thats what we found in Super rugby

 

[TRF_heineken]

Based on the reports in SA, it won't be a Pro18 tournament. It will either remain the same as Pro14, or become the Pro16. Which will then have 2 more SA teams than the current model.

But the Cheetahs as a franchise are contracted to play until 2023, so it would then mean that 3 other franchises will join them, should this happen. And the question is which franchise would lose out?

If I were to hazard a guess, it will all depend on how the teams perform in the local tournament. With the top 3 teams joining the Cheetahs. And the 4th team joining the Cheetahs, like they did in the Super 14 with the Cheetahs and the Lions, and were then called the Cats.

The other possibility, based on geographics, is that the Lions and the Bulls team up, and making combined team as they are just 50km's away from each other and in the same province. But I doubt that they will combine the 2 most successful teams in Super Rugby.

 

[mdaclarke]

Based on the reports in SA, it won't be a Pro18 tournament. It will either remain the same as Pro14, or become the Pro16. Which will then have 2 more SA teams than the current model.

But the Cheetahs as a franchise are contracted to play until 2023, so it would then mean that 3 other franchises will join them, should this happen. And the question is which franchise would lose out?

If I were to hazard a guess, it will all depend on how the teams perform in the local tournament. With the top 3 teams joining the Cheetahs. And the 4th team joining the Cheetahs, like they did in the Super 14 with the Cheetahs and the Lions, and were then called the Cats.

The other possibility, based on geographics, is that the Lions and the Bulls team up, and making combined team as they are just 50km's away from each other and in the same province. But I doubt that they will combine the 2 most successful teams in Super Rugby.

There is no way that the Pro 14 organisers would accept the loss of any of the Lions, Bulls, Stormers or Sharks. They are much bigger draws than the Cheetahs or Kings. I wonder if the Cats could make a comeback?

A Pro 18 Could work

2 Conferences of 9.
Play each team in Conference twice and the other Conferences once = 25 games.
Then have Quarter Finals, Semi Final and Final = 28 games

This is one less than the Maximum in the Top 14 in France which has
14 team Double Round Robin = 26 games
Then has Semi Final Playoff, Semi Final and Final = 29 games

Rotate Squads for Player Welfare Issues.

 

[TRF_heineken]

There is no way that the Pro 14 organisers would accept the loss of any of the Lions, Bulls, Stormers or Sharks. They are much bigger draws than the Cheetahs or Kings. I wonder if the Cats could make a comeback?

A Pro 18 Could work

2 Conferences of 9.
Play each team in Conference twice and the other Conferences once = 25 games.
Then have Quarter Finals, Semi Final and Final = 28 games

This is one less than the Maximum in the Top 14 in France which has
14 team Double Round Robin = 26 games
Then has Semi Final Playoff, Semi Final and Final = 29 games

Rotate Squads for Player Welfare Issues.

Based on the articles floating around this morning, especially from SANZAAR CEO, Andy Marinos that 18 teams was the downfall of Super Rugby. I don't see the Pro14 doing the same.

Plus, it seems like the discussions are already in place to have a Pro 14/16 tournament. With SARU's Jurie Roux saying that should that be the case, the other franchises will have to look at other competitions to compete in, even if it's just temporary.

But all this is just pipedream at the moment. We still have border control lockdown, so we can't even legally go to Namibia at the moment, never mind England, Ireland, Scotland or Italy.

 

[unrated]

Based on the reports in SA, it won't be a Pro18 tournament. It will either remain the same as Pro14, or become the Pro16. Which will then have 2 more SA teams than the current model.

But the Cheetahs as a franchise are contracted to play until 2023, so it would then mean that 3 other franchises will join them, should this happen. And the question is which franchise would lose out?

If I were to hazard a guess, it will all depend on how the teams perform in the local tournament. With the top 3 teams joining the Cheetahs. And the 4th team joining the Cheetahs, like they did in the Super 14 with the Cheetahs and the Lions, and were then called the Cats.

The other possibility, based on geographics, is that the Lions and the Bulls team up, and making combined team as they are just 50km's away from each other and in the same province. But I doubt that they will combine the 2 most successful teams in Super Rugby.

I'm sorry but how can you say the Lions are part of the two most succesfull teams in Super rugby. Bulls I understand yes because you have 3 ***les but no The Lions have a worse win record historically than the Sharks. Infact the Sharks has the best historical win record of all South African teams and one of the best overall behind the Crusaders. Also finished 1st in the log more times than most teams. Historically without the Kings the Sharks represented both the KwaZulu Natal region and the Easter province region (because there used to be no ep kings) so the Sharks is a guaranteed selection as it represents the biggest geographical rugby area in the country


Also the Cheetahs can't be kicked out. They are doing so well. They have recruited in a great way and I still want to see what they can achieve with the shrewd signings they made from Montpellier and some other SA teams. The Cheetahs are on the up. Kick out the Kings and keep 5 SA teams.its completely unfair to talk of kicking out the Cheetahs. Lions need to go before them IMO if it comes down to it. Otherwise we need 5 franchises in Pro (insert number here )

 

[mdaclarke]

I'm sorry but how can you say the Lions are part of the two most succesfull teams in Super rugby. Bulls I understand yes because you have 3 ***les but no The Lions have a worse win record historically than the Sharks. Infact the Sharks has the best historical win record of all South African teams and one of the best overall behind the Crusaders. Also finished 1st in the log more times than most teams. Historically without the Kings the Sharks represented both the KwaZulu Natal region and the Easter province region (because there used to be no ep kings) so the Sharks is a guaranteed selection as it represents the biggest geographical rugby area in the country


Also the Cheetahs can't be kicked out. They are doing so well. They have recruited in a great way and I still want to see what they can achieve with the shrewd signings they made from Montpellier and some other SA teams. The Cheetahs are on the up. Kick out the Kings and keep 5 SA teams.its completely unfair to talk of kicking out the Cheetahs. Lions need to go before them IMO if it comes down to it. Otherwise we need 5 franchises in Pro (insert number here )

What about the return of the Cats?

 

[unrated]

The Cats never worked. Cheetahs fans nor Lions fans had an attachment to this made up franchise. They were in an out of two bases. How could fans build a true attachment if you are in the Cheetahs geographical region and now the national structure says no you have to support a team in Joburg which sometimes will play games in your province (but less because you know commercial value is better in Joburg than Bloemfontein) South African rugby is riddled with provincialism based rivlaries which makes it interesting, to take that away will kill local rugby and the two teams which form the Cats.

Cheetahs fans already feel hard done by the National structures after just being kicked out of Super rugby. I'm not sure if the region can take much more of this incompetence

 

[Redman7]

I'd be dissapointed if the cheetahs got the boot as they've been my second team since they joined. Love to watch they play and always liked their jerseys.. having said that, from a pro14 view it would make sence to get the super rugby franchises in to increase the competition in the league and get more south African fans interested in the league. The cheetahs contract could be bought out possibly if it made sence for the other franchies? Money always wins out unfortunately.

 

[mdaclarke]

The Cats never worked. Cheetahs fans nor Lions fans had an attachment to this made up franchise. They were in an out of two bases. How could fans build a true attachment if you are in the Cheetahs geographical region and now the national structure says no you have to support a team in Joburg which sometimes will play games in your province (but less because you know commercial value is better in Joburg than Bloemfontein) South African rugby is riddled with provincialism based rivlaries which makes it interesting, to take that away will kill local rugby and the two teams which form the Cats.

Cheetahs fans already feel hard done by the National structures after just being kicked out of Super rugby. I'm not sure if the region can take much more of this incompetence

Trouble is that Supersport want the Bulls, Lions, Sharks and Stormers. They are the 4 big commercial heavyweights and in the end money talks.

I would like the Cheetahs to remain and find a 6th South African Franchise if the Kings can't take part

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm sorry but how can you say the Lions are part of the two most succesfull teams in Super rugby. Bulls I understand yes because you have 3 ***les but no The Lions have a worse win record historically than the Sharks. Infact the Sharks has the best historical win record of all South African teams and one of the best overall behind the Crusaders. Also finished 1st in the log more times than most teams. Historically without the Kings the Sharks represented both the KwaZulu Natal region and the Easter province region (because there used to be no ep kings) so the Sharks is a guaranteed selection as it represents the biggest geographical rugby area in the country


Also the Cheetahs can't be kicked out. They are doing so well. They have recruited in a great way and I still want to see what they can achieve with the shrewd signings they made from Montpellier and some other SA teams. The Cheetahs are on the up. Kick out the Kings and keep 5 SA teams.its completely unfair to talk of kicking out the Cheetahs. Lions need to go before them IMO if it comes down to it. Otherwise we need 5 franchises in Pro (insert number here )

I knew that remark would ruffle some feathers.

But the Lions Won the Super 10 and the Bulls the Super 14/15

Plus the Lions were in 3 consecutive finals recently.

if anything, the Stormers are the worst at Super Rugby in that they are regularly average, while the Sharks, Bulls and Lions all have good and bad seasons. For a long time it was the Bulls though, what was the joke again: "What's the difference between the Bulls and a Samoosa? A samoosa has 3 points"...

I know that whatever way they go about, there will be some sort of unhappiness. One of the big 5 teams will draw the short stick. And my guess is that it's either going to be the Cheetahs, or the Lions.

I hope they don't revert back to the Cats, one of the main problems they had was the 2 unions fighting over home games, and in sharing profits. Some games were played in Bloemfontein, and others at Ellis Park.

It would make the most sense if the Bulls and the Lions joined up, both geographically, and of the player personnel. These 2 teams' players take turns playing for either side, so most of them would be accustomed to the structures in place. Plus, the Lions would benefit from the top dollars the Bulls new Billionnaire owners have provided to them. Plus the Lions home ground, is in the shittiest area in the country.

Trouble is that Supersport want the Bulls, Lions, Sharks and Stormers. They are the 4 big commercial heavyweights and in the end money talks.

I would like the Cheetahs to remain and find a 6th South African Franchise if the Kings can't take part

Supersport doesn't have a big say in which teams play where. They are just the broadcaster, and take instruction from SARU. So whatever SARU decides, Supersport will have to go with it.

The Kings are gone. they won't take part, and have already started procedures for dissolvement.

 

[mdaclarke]

I knew that remark would ruffle some feathers.

But the Lions Won the Super 10 and the Bulls the Super 14/15

Plus the Lions were in 3 consecutive finals recently.

if anything, the Stormers are the worst at Super Rugby in that they are regularly average, while the Sharks, Bulls and Lions all have good and bad seasons. For a long time it was the Bulls though, what was the joke again: "What's the difference between the Bulls and a Samoosa? A samoosa has 3 points"...

I know that whatever way they go about, there will be some sort of unhappiness. One of the big 5 teams will draw the short stick. And my guess is that it's either going to be the Cheetahs, or the Lions.

I hope they don't revert back to the Cats, one of the main problems they had was the 2 unions fighting over home games, and in sharing profits. Some games were played in Bloemfontein, and others at Ellis Park.

It would make the most sense if the Bulls and the Lions joined up, both geographically, and of the player personnel. These 2 teams' players take turns playing for either side, so most of them would be accustomed to the structures in place. Plus, the Lions would benefit from the top dollars the Bulls new Billionnaire owners have provided to them. Plus the Lions home ground, is in the shittiest area in the country.



Supersport doesn't have a big say in which teams play where. They are just the broadcaster, and take instruction from SARU. So whatever SARU decides, Supersport will have to go with it.

The Kings are gone. they won't take part, and have already started procedures for dissolvement.

If you had to put your own money on it, what do you think will happen? How many South African teams will there be and which ones?

 

[Leinster Fan]

There is no way that the Pro 14 organisers would accept the loss of any of the Lions, Bulls, Stormers or Sharks. They are much bigger draws than the Cheetahs or Kings. I wonder if the Cats could make a comeback?

A Pro 18 Could work

2 Conferences of 9.
Play each team in Conference twice and the other Conferences once = 25 games.
Then have Quarter Finals, Semi Final and Final = 28 games

This is one less than the Maximum in the Top 14 in France which has
14 team Double Round Robin = 26 games
Then has Semi Final Playoff, Semi Final and Final = 29 games

Rotate Squads for Player Welfare Issues.

The IRFU and the other unions will never accept a 28 game tournament. Leinster rotate their squad as much as anyone but a potential 37 game season is just silly (it's worse for us than the french because internationals are soread far thinner).

24 games is the realistic maximum.

 

[TRF_heineken]

If you had to put your own money on it, what do you think will happen? How many South African teams will there be and which ones?

Knowing SARU, they'll try to accomodate as many teams as possible. They'll try to help all 5 of them, but I think they'll even try to assist the Griquas and Pumas too. There would be no point in lessening the teams when they've worked so hard in giving more teams that franchise status.

But if they are forced to just 4 teams, my guess would be to keep the Cheetahs (due to contractual obligations) and have the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers all join the Cheetahs (they were after all the first 3 franchises that showed interest up north. The Lions will then need to make a call on their future (like they did a couple of seasons ago when they weren't part of Super Rugby), either by joining a single franchise like the Bulls or Cheetahs, or to divide and conquer and send out their players out on loan and see what way they can minimize financial strains on themselves.

If I was a betting man, my money would be on the Lions not getting the better deal. And it would make the most logical sense too, especially since they've lost most of their prestige players, and are very green and fresh in the coaching department, and might not have the same caliber as the other 3 teams and their high caliber Springboks.

 

[mdaclarke]

Knowing SARU, they'll try to accomodate as many teams as possible. They'll try to help all 5 of them, but I think they'll even try to assist the Griquas and Pumas too. There would be no point in lessening the teams when they've worked so hard in giving more teams that franchise status.

But if they are forced to just 4 teams, my guess would be to keep the Cheetahs (due to contractual obligations) and have the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers all join the Cheetahs (they were after all the first 3 franchises that showed interest up north. The Lions will then need to make a call on their future (like they did a couple of seasons ago when they weren't part of Super Rugby), either by joining a single franchise like the Bulls or Cheetahs, or to divide and conquer and send out their players out on loan and see what way they can minimize financial strains on themselves.

If I was a betting man, my money would be on the Lions not getting the better deal. And it would make the most logical sense too, especially since they've lost most of their prestige players, and are very green and fresh in the coaching department, and might not have the same caliber as the other 3 teams and their high caliber Springboks.

If they could get the Griquas or Pumas in that would be amazing.

I agree, that if they had to drop one of the original 4 that dropping the Lions makes sense as they seem to be weaker than the other 3

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Supersport doesn't have a big say in which teams play where. They are just the broadcaster, and take instruction from SARU. So whatever SARU decides, Supersport will have to go with it.

I'm not sure that 100%, broadcasters have a big say in the product they think people will watch, at very least if they dont get the format they want they will offer less money

I agree, that if they had to drop one of the original 4 that dropping the Lions makes sense as they seem to be weaker than the other 3

...except the lions made the final in 2016, 2017 and 2018....

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm not sure that 100%, broadcasters have a big say in the product they think people will watch, at very least if they dont get the format they want they will offer less money

I don't think that is the case with SA and Supersport though. Supersport has a monopoly on sport in Southern Africa, as our Public Broadcaster, the SABC is bankrupt. The SABC used to air only Tests, which they got from Supersport, and it was never live broadcasts, always delayed screenings of about an hour or 2 after the match started.

Supersport doesn't have a board member at SARU, and does not take part in the decisions or voting. That is up to the 14 local unions and their representatives.

...except the lions made the final in 2016, 2017 and 2018....

indeed. But that is just on part of the issue. before that, they had a year sabbatical from Super Rugby. and during that tenure, they had Swys De Bruin as their coach, who then became the Springboks assistant coach, and they had stars like Malcolm Marx, Faf de Klerk, Franco Mostert, Aphiwe Dyanthi, Ruan Combrink, Warren Whiteley, Jaco Kriel, Lionel Mapoe and Rohan Janse van Rensburg in their team.

Only Jaco Kriel is now available for them along with Elton Jantjies.

They also didn't have a great 2019 or a 2020 season, and that will count against them, while the Bulls were the leading SA team in 2019 and the Sharks in 2020.

The Stormers, albeit have their own internal issues. They moved now to the Cape Town Stadium where the 7's tournament is also held yearly. Plus, Cape Town is a major tourist city, and always draw the crowds, and it will be even more so because the Cape Town stadium is close to the tourist hub of the city.

The same can be said about the Sharks, and the great weather in KZN always ensures bums in seats, as well as it's the only stadium in SA where you can still have a beer inside the venue.

The Bulls, well they are based in the Capital city. Have major financial backing, by guys who are politically connected and will throw their weight around to ensure their investment grows. Plus the 3 Super Rugby ***les plays a big part too. And they signed some Springboks during lockdown, to ensure they have prestige in their team.

Based on that, the Lions are on the bottom of the food chain.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I don't think that is the case with SA and Supersport though. Supersport has a monopoly on sport in Southern Africa, as our Public Broadcaster, the SABC is bankrupt. The SABC used to air only Tests, which they got from Supersport, and it was never live broadcasts, always delayed screenings of about an hour or 2 after the match started.

Supersport doesn't have a board member at SARU, and does not take part in the decisions or voting. That is up to the 14 local unions and their representatives.



indeed. But that is just on part of the issue. before that, they had a year sabbatical from Super Rugby. and during that tenure, they had Swys De Bruin as their coach, who then became the Springboks assistant coach, and they had stars like Malcolm Marx, Faf de Klerk, Franco Mostert, Aphiwe Dyanthi, Ruan Combrink, Warren Whiteley, Jaco Kriel, Lionel Mapoe and Rohan Janse van Rensburg in their team.

Only Jaco Kriel is now available for them along with Elton Jantjies.

They also didn't have a great 2019 or a 2020 season, and that will count against them, while the Bulls were the leading SA team in 2019 and the Sharks in 2020.

The Stormers, albeit have their own internal issues. They moved now to the Cape Town Stadium where the 7's tournament is also held yearly. Plus, Cape Town is a major tourist city, and always draw the crowds, and it will be even more so because the Cape Town stadium is close to the tourist hub of the city.

The same can be said about the Sharks, and the great weather in KZN always ensures bums in seats, as well as it's the only stadium in SA where you can still have a beer inside the venue.

The Bulls, well they are based in the Capital city. Have major financial backing, by guys who are politically connected and will throw their weight around to ensure their investment grows. Plus the 3 Super Rugby ***les plays a big part too. And they signed some Springboks during lockdown, to ensure they have prestige in their team.

Based on that, the Lions are on the bottom of the food chain.

That's not how business works though, the unions need the tv rights and if super sports has a monopoly then they have even more power to suggest the type of format People will pay to watch or they think they can sell to other markets

I don't believe any of the broadcasters have representatives on boards of unions, I'm not saying direct influence...but they're the ones buying the product so the unions produce what they want

if super sports offer the SRU $20m for a domestic comp...but $40m if they can get four teams into Europe or $50m if they can get six....what do you think the SRU will be campaigning for?

that's one of the reasons super rugby added teams, super sports and Foxtel offered more money for more teams in different areas because they could increase market share In new areas

 

[TRF_heineken]

That's not how business works though, the unions need the tv rights and if super sports has a monopoly then they have even more power to suggest the type of format People will pay to watch or they think they can sell to other markets

I don't believe any of the broadcasters have representatives on boards of unions, I'm not saying direct influence...but they're the ones buying the product so the unions produce what they want

if super sports offer the SRU $20m for a domestic comp...but $40m if they can get four teams into Europe or $50m if they can get six....what do you think the SRU will be campaigning for?

that's one of the reasons super rugby added teams, super sports and Foxtel offered more money for more teams in different areas because they could increase market share In new areas

This article gives you a clear idea of how it works in SA:

The expensive, complicated game of sports broadcasting rights

With the FIFA World Cup, Afcon, Rugby World Cup, and Cricket World Cup scheduled for the next two years, sports

themediaonline.co.za

 

[Kiwiwomble]

This article gives you a clear idea of how it works in SA:

The expensive, complicated game of sports broadcasting rights

With the FIFA World Cup, Afcon, Rugby World Cup, and Cricket World Cup scheduled for the next two years, sports

themediaonline.co.za

Seems pretty standard, similar everywhere I'd say

 

[mdaclarke]

I know I am probably alone in this but I like the following format

Conference 1 6 South African Teams
Conference 2 4 Welsh and 2 Italian Teams
Conference 3 4 Irish and 2 Scottish Teams

Each Team plays the other 5 teams in their conference twice and the other 12 teams once.
This means that every team plays each over at least once. (the main issue with Super Rugby's conference system.

There will be 22 games in in the main league

Then have a 6 Team play off with the top 2 ranked teams getting bye's to the semi Finals.

There will be an extra 3 games maximum in the play off rounds. Meaning a min and max of 22 and 25 games.

European Qualification would be the top 3 teams in Conference 2 and 3 until such point as the South African Teams area allowed in.