South Africa vs Ireland - 3 Tests - June 2016

[Ludders93]

This lions side are pretty special, playing some amazing rugby. I like both teams, but I'm not sure about JP Pietersen or Mvovo. JP Pietersen had a decent world cup, but has been on the decline for years aside from that. Are Habana and Vermuelen definitely not playing.

 

[saulan]

This lions side are pretty special, playing some amazing rugby. I like both teams, but I'm not sure about JP Pietersen or Mvovo. JP Pietersen had a decent world cup, but has been on the decline for years aside from that. Are Habana and Vermuelen definitely not playing.

Vermuelen has been named in the squad so he has to rock up or retire from international rugby.

 

[JohnKA]

Garth April ... that was a very fast rise ... but he has skill

 

[saulan]

Announced SA Squad:
Name/Position/Franchise-Club/Test Caps
1. Garth April Flyhalf Cell C Sharks 0
2. Ruan Combrinck Wing Emirates Lions 0
3. Damian de Allende Centre DHL Stormers 13
4. Lood de Jager Lock Toyota Cheetahs 19
5. Faf de Klerk Scrumhalf Emirates Lions 0
6. Pieter-Steph du Toit Lock DHL Stormers 8
7. Eben Etzebeth Lock DHL Stormers 44
8. Nic Groom Scrumhalf DHL Stormers 0
9. Elton Jantjies Flyhalf Emirates Lions 2
10. Steven Kitshoff Prop Bordeaux (France) 0
11. Siya Kolisi Flank DHL Stormers 13
12. Jaco Kriel Flank Emirates Lions 0
13. Jesse Kriel Centre Vodacom Bulls 11
14. Patrick Lambie Flyhalf Cell C Sharks 50
15. Willie le Roux Fullback Cell C Sharks 34
16. Francois Louw Flank Bath (England) 43
17. Frans Malherbe Prop DHL Stormers 12
18. Lionel Mapoe Centre Emirates Lions 1
19. Bongi Mbonambi Hooker DHL Stormers 0
20. Tendai Mtawarira Prop Cell C Sharks 75
21. Lwazi Mvovo Wing Cell C Sharks 15
22. Sikhumbuzo Notshe Flank DHL Stormers 0
23. Scarra Ntubeni Hooker DHL Stormers 0
24. Trevor Nyakane Prop Vodacom Bulls 23
25. Rudy Paige Scrumhalf Vodacom Bulls 2
26. JP Pietersen Wing Cell C Sharks 66
27. Julian Redelinghuys Prop Emirates Lions 2
28. Jan Serfontein Centre Vodacom Bulls 26
29. Adriaan Strauss Hooker Vodacom Bulls 54
30. Duane Vermeulen No 8 Toulon (France) 35
31. Warren Whiteley No 8 Emirates Lions 3

 

[unrated]

Vermuelen has been named in the squad so he has to rock up or retire from international rugby.

I think they would have discussed it beforehand so he probably already agreed to come before they announced it. Regarding Garth April. Lets be clear he has shown promise in the TWO super rugby games he has started but to select him over Johan Goosen is very very questionable... They said they wanted to pick a squad for the future and Johan Goosen is younger than Garth and in great form they could have picked both even. I understand that they didn't pick F.Steyn because everyone in SA rugby seems to begrudge him for "that incident" last year. But where is bismarck? He is the best hooker in the world and they dont pick him? What can the reasoning be for that? surely not that he is a foreign based player. They sure did not have a problem in selecting Vermeulen and Louw so why not Bismarck and Goosen who undoubtedly has enough talent and form to be picked on merit.

Lastly they included the injured Jantjies. He is confirmed injured and wont play but now they picked him and someone like Goosen who might have played gets left out. I dont want to come across as negative im just very passionate about the team. Would it not be nice if they made it clearer what our exact foreign policy is? Why do they choose some players from England and France but then leave out Equally good players from france and label its as looking local. Nic Groom? but sometimes the stormers dont even select him and he certainly is not a fan favourite at the stormers. Other than some of my negative comments (which i do regret) i am happy with the other selections.

- - - Updated - - -

This lions side are pretty special, playing some amazing rugby. I like both teams, but I'm not sure about JP Pietersen or Mvovo. JP Pietersen had a decent world cup, but has been on the decline for years aside from that. Are Habana and Vermuelen definitely not playing.

JP is a very good player. He might not be the most active player on the field sometimes but you can always count on him defensively he has that consistency required of an international player. Some games he seems like he is possessed by a demon tackling, rucking, breaking tackles.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

1. Garth April Flyhalf Cell C Sharks 0
Wow, that is a fast-track of note! I know Pollard and Du Preez is injured and while April has shown promise can you really expect him to take charge should Lambie get injured? And he will be on the bench cause Jantjies is injured but still included in the squad ahead of a fit Goosen. I hate saying this but an attempt to add color with these two names? April has zero experience for his age and Jantjies is injured.

2. Ruan Combrinck Wing Emirates Lions 0
If last year weren't a RWC he'd probably have been capped already. An option for fullback as well as the best wing in SA ATM.

3. Damian de Allende Centre DHL Stormers 13
Lucky to make the squad. We know he has it but he hasn't shown it recently.

4. Lood de Jager Lock Toyota Cheetahs 19
We know how valuable he is in the tighter test match environment rather than in a game of 7s like the Cheetahs like to play.

5. Faf de Klerk Scrumhalf Emirates Lions 0
Along with Combrinck, Mapoe, Kriel and Jantjies a player that should've been capped already or featured more but for Meyer wanting caps for last year's RWC.

6. Pieter-Steph du Toit Lock DHL Stormers 8
Has been outstanding.


7. Eben Etzebeth Lock DHL Stormers 44
No brainer. He took a few games to get into form again before the new injury. He doesn't have the luxury now.

8. Nic Groom Scrumhalf DHL Stormers 0
I'm a tad surprised TBH. I susect with Reinach injured, Pienaar and Hougaard unavailable and Du Preez retired we have to get someone else in.

9. Elton Jantjies Flyhalf Emirates Lions 2
Picks himself but as far as I know he'll be injured and unavailable?

10. Steven Kitshoff Prop Bordeaux (France) 0
Didn't get the chances under Meyer mostly because of the timing of his injuries. If anyone Coetzee will know what he has in Kitshoff.

11. Siya Kolisi Flank DHL Stormers 13
There is room in the flanks with players based overseas probably at a disadvantage and injuries (Coetzee, Burger)

12. Jaco Kriel Flank Emirates Lions 0
Same as Kolisi. I have no idea how they see the backrow as frming though. Personally I'd go Kriel, Kolisi and Vermeulen as 6, 7 and 8 with Whiteley on the bench.

13. Jesse Kriel Centre Vodacom Bulls 11
Very able utility back.

14. Patrick Lambie Flyhalf Cell C Sharks 50
Captain? As is he is probably the only player 100% sure of his starting place. Hope he keeps up the good form.

15. Willie le Roux Fullback Cell C Sharks 34
His sppot is not as secure as it was here since Kriel and Combrinck canplay at 15.

16. Francois Louw Flank Bath (England) 43
I have no idea what sort of form he is in.

17. Frans Malherbe Prop DHL Stormers 12
Should already have had more than those 12 caps.

18. Lionel Mapoe Centre Emirates Lions 1
His form means he is an auto pick at 13 IMO.

19. Bongi Mbonambi Hooker DHL Stormers 0
As a Stormers supporter I wouldn't have our tw hookers over the Lions duo of Marx or Van der Merwe.

20. Tendai Mtawarira Prop Cell C Sharks 75
Has been in good form. No reason to throw away experience if the player isn't dropping off the pace.

21. Lwazi Mvovo Wing Cell C Sharks 15
Ja. More a case of our lack of depth at wing than anything else IMO.

22. Sikhumbuzo Notshe Flank DHL Stormers 0
A bit of a bolter but like I said previously there are spots open.

23. Scarra Ntubeni Hooker DHL Stormers 0
See Mbonambi. A decent hooker if can find his target at line-out.

24. Trevor Nyakane Prop Vodacom Bulls 23
It'll be interesting to see how the workload is distributed between Nyakane, Kitshoff and Beast. Nyakane possibly moving to tighthead?

25. Rudy Paige Scrumhalf Vodacom Bulls 2
I still can't see it. Probably him and Groom get in due to the void left by other options being unavailable.

26. JP Pietersen Wing Cell C Sharks 66
Has been in decent enough form.

27. Julian Redelinghuys Prop Emirates Lions 2
I'd rather have had the Lions hookers than their TH. I prefer other options but as long as it isn't Oosthuizen I'm happy enough.

28. Jan Serfontein Centre Vodacom Bulls 26
Has been in better form than De Allende.

29. Adriaan Strauss Hooker Vodacom Bulls 54
Sure.

30. Duane Vermeulen No 8 Toulon (France) 35
His game isn't too dependant on form and we know his value at test level

31. Warren Whiteley No 8 Emirates Lions 3
A great option on the bench him and Kolisi due to their versatility.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

So what's the likely starting XV and subs for the Springboks from squad chosen?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

So what's the likely starting XV and subs for the Springboks from squad chosen?

If it were me:

Kitshoff/Beast/Nyakane
Strauss
Malherbe
Etzebeth
Du Toit/De Jager
Kriel
Whiteley/Kolisi
Vermeulen

De Klerk
Lambie

Combrinck
Serfontein/De Allende
Mapoe
Le Roux/JPP
Kriel/Le Roux

I bracketed players where I felt there wasn't much in it.

 

[SomeOke]

Pretty exciting squad actually. The rather glaring weakness is obviously at scrum Nic Groom is not a test level scrum-half but it's been a bit of a problem in SA for a while now. A few quota inclusions popping up as well, particularly with the Stormers hookers but it could be worse and Bongi and Scarra are not completely without merit.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Pretty exciting squad actually. The rather glaring weakness is obviously at scrum Nic Groom is not a test level scrum-half but it's been a bit of a problem in SA for a while now. A few quota inclusions popping up as well, particularly with the Stormers hookers but it could be worse and Bongi and Scarra are not completely without merit.

That pretty uch sums up my thoughts as well. Its about as good a squad as we can muster considering injuries and quotas as well as the new drive to cut down on reliance on overseas based player which I tend to agree with looking long term.

Agree Groom and Paige are weak links. I'm jst praying De Klerk stays fit. The thing is who else? Reinach is injured. Du Preez has retired, Pienaar has made himself unavailable and TBH I'd rather give someone else a go in any case, Hougaard is with the 7s, Kolbe seems dead set on not playing at 9. Kockott is French now. Myself, I'd rather have had Shaun Venter or Ross Cronje ahead of either Groom or Paige but whatever.

Ja, Scarra and Mbonambi add value around the park but Ireland will probably fancy themselves competing for our line-out ball should Strauss come off. If anything their inclusion tells me Strauss is in all probability going to captain the side. I just hope we don't get to a situation where we are down and looking for impact off of the bench and we all are saying, "****, Akker van der Merwe's carrying would've come in handy now."

- - - Updated - - -

A bit off topic but;

1 Heinke van der Merwe
2 Armand van der Merwe
3 Marcel van der Merwe
4 Francois van der Merwe
5 Flip van der Merwe

That Van der Merwe tight 5 is tier 1 quality!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yeah I'm rather happy with the squad to be honest, and I like the message that AC is sending with his first squad.

Picking mostly players in South Africa, with just 3 players from abroad in Kitshoff, Flouw and Vermeulen. Kitshoff I can completely see the reasoning, he's in form, young and very talented, and by capping him now, France won't get the chance to pick him in 2 year's time. Flouw and Vermeulen are part of the leadership squad, and both have played under AC before and knows his views and policies. Whether they pitch up is another question, but I still think they are vital to our cause.

The players I thought are very lucky to be in the squad:

Nic Groom (WTF!!!)
Bongi Mbonambi
Scarra Ntubeni

Groom is not even in my top 6 list of scrumhalves I'd pick. Reinach is already in recovery, so why not pick an already capped Springbok? Hell, I'd rather go for Jano Vermaak. But hey every coach has a lovechild they'd include.

As for the hookers, I get that AC has to pick players of colour, and that this is a position where there are currently 5 black players in Super Rugby, but he picked the wrong guys. He should have picked Marutlule.

Other than that, I can see what AC is looking for in the players, and I'm very excited about the brand of rugby we could play with these guys.

Here's my 23:

1. Beast Mtawarira
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Frans Malherbe
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. PS Du Toit
6. Francois Louw
7. Jaco Kriel
8. Duane Vermeulen

9. Faf De Klerk
10. Pat Lambie
11. Ruan Combrink
12. Jan Serfontein
13. Lionel Mapoe
14. JPP
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Trevor Nyakane
17. Bongi Mbonambi
18. Steven Kitshoff
19. Lood De Jager
20. Siya Kolisi
21. Rudy Paige
22. Elton Jantjies (if not injured) otherwise Garth April
23. Jesse Kriel

Now I know that this team won't be picked as it's still a bit bleak, but hey, this team is just oozing X-factor!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Jano Vermaak is also injured otherwise he'd be playing for the Stormers ahead of Groom I'd say. So, ja, a WTF from me as well and also i dont rate Paige. I don't think either will be in the long0term plans so I'm not overly worried.

Agreed if we are looking for a specifically black hooker I'd also go for Marutlule first. I suppose he is favoring Ntubeni and Mbonambi because he has worked with them (and all 3 overseas based players) because of their Stormers days together.

All in all though a number of positive moves; the inclusion of the form Lions players (though Akker and Marx should've been there) and keeping the number of overseas based players to a minimum (I think Louw wouldn't even have been there if Coetzee or Brussow available but beyond Kriel we lack an out-and-out fetcher).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Luke Fitzgerald is injured and will miss the tour... But we all already knew that'd happen didn't we.

 

[Ludders93]

Ireland went on a 20 month period of excellence, starting with the last minute 2 point defeat to New Zealand in November 2013, and ending with the Argentina game in October 2015 at the Rugby World Cup.

2 Six Nations championships, and in 2014 especially-they should've won a grand slam. They gave Wales an easy 12-0 lead. Dominated the entire game from that point on, but came up a little short.

They did brilliantly against the Southern Hemisphere in the 2014 tests, and put in an impressive performance against a feeble French side in the group stage.

But Argentina attacked with width and pace, got outside the narrow Irish defence and tore Ireland apart.

Ireland still haven't recovered from that. They were seriously poor in the six nations. They needed a 9-0 start against the Welsh to cling on to a draw. They offered nothing in the second half against a poor French side, and they could've been 20 points down at half time against England.

They racked up a high score against a terrible Italy side. They were lucky to beat Scotland by 10 points. If Scotland had kept 15 men on the field all match they could've won that game. The Irish tried to play a more expansive game as the tournament went on, but they're not suited to wide attacking rugby.

My point is this, Irish fans on here thinking Ireland can get a win/maybe even nick the series are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Injuries, end of season fatigue, and the fact Ireland are on the decline will make this a one sided series. Joe Schmidt may even leave after this tour.

The first game could be close for 50 minutes as South Africa get used to playing together with a new side, but they'll end up winning by 10 points.
In Johannesburg South Africa will win by 20+ points. Playing at altitude, with a core of lions players, they'll run Ireland ragged.
The final game in Durban might give Ireland a chance to nick a test in a dead-rubber game. But I still think South Africa even with changes are too strong for Ireland.

Ireland are going to go through a couple of years of decline. They're too reliant on SOB, Heaslip, Murray and Sexton, and because of that, they play a very conservative game. It worked for a while, but sides have caught onto it now, even in the six nations. They need to evolve, but it'll take time.

A resounding 3-0 to South Africa.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/adriaan-strauss-named-springbok-captain/

Strauss captains the Boks. Hookers as captains are all the rage now.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ireland went on a 20 month period of excellence, starting with the last minute 2 point defeat to New Zealand in November 2013, and ending with the Argentina game in October 2015 at the Rugby World Cup.

2 Six Nations championships, and in 2014 especially-they should've won a grand slam. They gave Wales an easy 12-0 lead. Dominated the entire game from that point on, but came up a little short.

They did brilliantly against the Southern Hemisphere in the 2014 tests, and put in an impressive performance against a feeble French side in the group stage.

But Argentina attacked with width and pace, got outside the narrow Irish defence and tore Ireland apart.

Ireland still haven't recovered from that. They were seriously poor in the six nations. They needed a 9-0 start against the Welsh to cling on to a draw. They offered nothing in the second half against a poor French side, and they could've been 20 points down at half time against England.

They racked up a high score against a terrible Italy side. They were lucky to beat Scotland by 10 points. If Scotland had kept 15 men on the field all match they could've won that game. The Irish tried to play a more expansive game as the tournament went on, but they're not suited to wide attacking rugby.

My point is this, Irish fans on here thinking Ireland can get a win/maybe even nick the series are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Injuries, end of season fatigue, and the fact Ireland are on the decline will make this a one sided series. Joe Schmidt may even leave after this tour.

The first game could be close for 50 minutes as South Africa get used to playing together with a new side, but they'll end up winning by 10 points.
In Johannesburg South Africa will win by 20+ points. Playing at altitude, with a core of lions players, they'll run Ireland ragged.
The final game in Durban might give Ireland a chance to nick a test in a dead-rubber game. But I still think South Africa even with changes are too strong for Ireland.

Ireland are going to go through a couple of years of decline. They're too reliant on SOB, Heaslip, Murray and Sexton, and because of that, they play a very conservative game. It worked for a while, but sides have caught onto it now, even in the six nations. They need to evolve, but it'll take time.

A resounding 3-0 to South Africa.

Ireland didn't have a defensive coach this six nations, Farrell has been well received by the players by all accounts. Add in Sexton and Murray having a long run of fitness as well as Heaslip, Henshaw and Murphy all being in top form as well as the return of Iain Henderson who was a bigger loss than PO'C from the world cup and our starting 23 are better than a few months ago.
The fact that South Africa seemingly have similar injuries and four mid-table franchises to pick players from as well as a new coaching set-up I really see them in the same position as we are. Given their home advantage and lack of fatigue I see them winning the series but we'll see two or three close games and an Irish victory isn't a fantastical thought.

 

[Ludders93]

Ireland's next 7 games. South Africa away 3 times in this tour, New Zealand in America, then Canada at home, followed by New Zealand and Australia in Dublin.

Add in the fact in the 2017 6 nations they have to go to Rome, Edinburgh and Cardiff. I think it's going to be a difficult 12 months of rugby for Ireland. Similar to what happened exactly 4 years ago, where they toured NZ, lost 3-0 (with one near amazing win!) but with two thrashings, had an awful autumn, then finished tied bottom of the 2013 6 nations.

I'm not trying to sound sadistic but I'm just commenting honestly on what I see. Leinster and Munster in the champions cup this year were awful. Ireland's high intensity game plan under Schmidt is hugely demanding, and it has a life span of about 2 years. Once the intensity of the players drops even a little bit, there's a huge drop off.

I'm just saying this as a gambler who sees trends. I'll be betting against Ireland this tour, especially in game 2 in Johannesburg where I can't see South Africa winning by less than 15 points. If Sky Bet offer something like Even Money on South Africa winning by 13 or more points, I'll happily wager £5,000. I'm that confident.

The extra width and tempo that altitude brings to the game will allow South Africa to stretch Ireland's narrow defence and run in tries. Their contingent of lions players who've been running sides ragged each week will tear Ireland apart. And as Ireland go 10+ points down, and are forced to try and run the ball as opposed to just kicking, they'll play more and more into South Africa's hands. Test 2 is almost 100% certain to be a SA 15+ point victory.

 

[JohnKA]

I think Ireland will be trashed at Newlands even if we have a new team the nation is backing these players more than what we had with Meyer and the Newlands crowd can be very intimidating , also these new players are young and seem to have a better skill set with ball in hand but we also have a lot of grunt in our pack , also I am friends with a few players that is in the SA squad and they say Coetzee is very much going for a ball in hand approach. This will be a next gen Springbok team Ireland will face .

 

[unrated]

The importance of consistency is critical. That why the B and I lions has not been as successful as some of their core nations. We will probably win the first test just on the fact that every player will want to put in a very good shift to impress the new coach and try to nail down a first team spot. Also cant see us losing in Johannesburg but for the final test (even though i will always back The Springboks to win at home) we will be tested the most with the Irish consistency. With that said the Irish will probably throw a lot at it in the first test so i reckon this one will be the most interesting.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Pieter-Steph Du Toit has withdrawn from the squad with a hamstring injury and has been replaced by Franco Mostert.
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/mostert-replaces-du-toit-in-bok-squad-20160531

Stephan Lewies will take Mostert's place in the SA "A" side.