Sonny Bill Williams News + Progress in ITM Cup

[Teh Mite]

Pah, let's see him in the international or Super 15 stage first. Top 14>ITM Cup.

Argueable.

No. It's not.

 

[Sam Owen]

I'm presuming he's saying the Top 14 is a harder stage to perform on than the ITM cup, which is true

I havent played either so I dont truely know lol. However I think that arguement would be settled when the All Blacks play the stars of the Top 14 if they havent done so already.

Another thing is nearly all NH players that play ITM cup always say that its tough, physical and fast. I honestly hear this from them when interviewed after their games, who knows they could be just saying it..

 

[nickdnz]

I havent played either so I dont truely know lol. However I think that arguement would be settled when the All Blacks play the stars of the Top 14 if they havent done so already.

Well, the All Blacks play in the Super 14 as well, which is arguably harder than the Top 14. The ITM Cup is the second tier of NZ rugby, which is what I think everyone is pointing out.

 

[ranger]

No. It's not.

Well, i think so.. we can have different opinions right?

 

[Sam Owen]

Well, the All Blacks play in the Super 14 as well, which is arguably harder than the Top 14. The ITM Cup is the second tier of NZ rugby, which is what I think everyone is pointing out.

No nick read properly they feel that the Top 14 cup is harder than the ITM. I havent played either so I dont know. Geez do I have to re-write what Ive already written lol...FAR OUT

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Well, i think so.. we can have different opinions right?

Differing opinions...ooooooh, you better believe that's a paddling

 

[ranger]

Differing opinions...ooooooh, you better believe that's a paddling

Christ what wont get me a paddling around here!? haha

 

[Sam Owen]

Christ what wont get me a paddling around here!? haha

Nothing, where ever you post on TRF some one totaly different will think about what you've said and decide to look for this same photo put it on their reply with the phrase...'its time for a paddling' lol.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I havent played either so I dont truely know lol. However I think that arguement would be settled when the All Blacks play the stars of the Top 14 if they havent done so already.

Another thing is nearly all NH players that play ITM cup always say that its tough, physical and fast. I honestly hear this from them when interviewed after their games, who knows they could be just saying it..

But the AllBlacks don't play in the ITM enough for that. New Zealand's top players don't play in this league while the best of France and some of the best in the world ply their trade in the Top 14 week in week out.

Hence: Top14>ITM Cup

QED

 

[Sam Owen]

But the AllBlacks don't play in the ITM enough for that. New Zealand's top players don't play in this league while the best of France and some of the best in the world ply their trade in the Top 14 week in week out.

Hence: Top14>ITM Cup

QED

Oh ok lol you obviously dont watch much ITM and I havent watched any Top 14, so I cant comment on the Top 14. If you guys say so then ok then. All Blacks do play in the ITM cup not all but some. However it's a silly arguement (my comp is better than your comp), Sonny was offered millions to play there in the 'Top 14' but he chose to play here and he's going well despite what some people said he'd be.

 

[Teh Mite]

Think of it this way: If the Super 14 is on par with the Top 14, the ITM cup is the equivalent of Pro D2.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Oh ok lol you obviously dont watch much ITM and I havent watched any Top 14, so I cant comment on the Top 14. If you guys say so then ok then. All Blacks do play in the ITM cup not all but some. However it's a silly arguement (my comp is better than your comp), Sonny was offered millions to play there in the 'Top 14' but he chose to play here and he's going well despite what some people said he'd be.

I have, and I stand by my comments. How much ITM have Dan Carter, Richie McCaw or Ma'aa Nonu played this year? Buggar all. I didn't say they never play, they just don't play enough to put the competition on a par with the best domestic competition in world rugby(ie. the top14).

 

[Sam Owen]

I have, and I stand by my comments. How much ITM have Dan Carter, Richie McCaw or Ma'aa Nonu played this year? Buggar all. I didn't say they never play, they just don't play enough to put the competition on a par with the best domestic competition in world rugby(ie. the top14).

I dont think Dan, Ritchie or Ma'a have played any ITM this year due to All Black duties. However All Blacks have been playing in the ITM so your wrong on that note. Well the Top 14 does sound good if it has top world class players in it. One thing we do know is Sonny would have been up there in the Top 14's highest paid players, so that complements him nicely. As you say it must be a good comp so good that they know what wouldve been good for them (i.e SBW).

 

[ranger]

But the AllBlacks don't play in the ITM enough for that. New Zealand's top players don't play in this league while the best of France and some of the best in the world ply their trade in the Top 14 week in week out.

Hence: Top14>ITM Cup

QED

I don't think its as clear cut as "this competition is better than that competition". The type of game that is played in New Zealand is just a different style then the French game, not better, not worse, different.
My personal opinion on the matter is that the French game appears more structured, whereas the ITM teams are more willing to forget everything their coach has told them and just play instinctively. In France, from the games that i have seen (obviously there are exceptions) the forwards and the set piece looks to be a more important factor and the game looks to be controlled with the boot more. The majority of the tries i have seen scored in the top 14 have been well worked, well executed team plays. In the ITM cup, its normally headless chicken rugby sevens stuff.

The part where this becomes relevant is that some players could find it more difficult to play in the ITM cup with this helter skelter style. Especially guys that have only recently taken up the sport...
When play breaks down and the set plays are abandoned its up to the players themselves to decide where to go, what lines to run,who to mark, when to go in the ruck, when to pass etc. It happens sometimes in the top 14 and it happens always in the ITM cup. If your natural instincts and rugby brain aren't/isn't up to scratch you will get found out at ITM cup level.

Just look at Luke Rooney, he commanded a starting spot in the top 14, but his ability to make decisions in broken play was poor and now he cant land a spot in the 22 of one of the celler dweller sides. Does that mean the top 14 is a worse competition? absolutely not, but it does show that there is a difference between the two competitions and if your golden rule of "Top 14>ITM" held true, or as Olyy said "Top 14 is a harder stage to perform on than the ITM cup" then Rooney would be a superstar here.

You can't just write off anything SBW does here because the top 14 is "better", he is being tested in a different way in the ITM cup and is doing a great job of it. His decision making in broken play has been great, even to a level where i would say that someone viewing him for the first time wouldn't be able to tell he was a convert. His defensive positioning can be off at times, but i would wager that the ITM cup would be the best place to learn that particular skill. Hes in the ITM cup to show that he has a rugby brain and the raw capacity to be molded into a test rugby player.

Also, there have been All Blacks dotted around the ITM cup all year although admittedly the big names haven't turned out yet. Now the trinations is over and we should see the likes of Carter and McCaw on the field and the test for SBW to set up a notch.

supero omnia

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

No. It's not.

Wow, why am I not surprised? Classic comedy.

People can't argue for what they believe? Surely though, I thought just about everything was arguable on TRF. :lol:


It was fun tracking the conversation back to see where the argument starter of this thread came from (not Bullitt obviously, but I wanted to reply on the "arguable" issue). Obviously nothing to do in the NH threads at the moment, so why not start a p*ssing contest over something unprovable in the SBW/ITM Cup thread. :lol:

 

[Feicarsinn]

I dont think Dan, Ritchie or Ma'a have played any ITM this year due to All Black duties. However All Blacks have been playing in the ITM so your wrong on that note. Well the Top 14 does sound good if it has top world class players in it. One thing we do know is Sonny would have been up there in the Top 14's highest paid players, so that complements him nicely. As you say it must be a good comp so good that they know what wouldve been good for them (i.e SBW).

How so? It's a well known fact that Toulon have more money than sense and that players are reluctant to be moving about the year before the World Cup (unless to move back home to get a shot)


Also which All Blacks have played ITM this year? I don't mean previously capped players btw, I mean players currently in the squad or competing for a World Cup berth.

 

[Sam Owen]

How so? It's a well known fact that Toulon have more money than sense and that players are reluctant to be moving about the year before the World Cup (unless to move back home to get a shot)


Also which All Blacks have played ITM this year? I don't mean previously capped players btw, I mean players currently in the squad or competing for a World Cup berth.

I thought we all knew SBW turned down a 'HUGE' amount to play here, thats old news here and in France. So like I said before he would have been one of the highest paid players in the Top 14 and thats correct.

If you were watching the ITM like many things you've said Feicarr you'd know that All Blacks have been playing ITM. Oh and yes this years All Blacks have been playing ITM, I know who they are but geez mate cmon...you said you watched ITM.

 

[ranger]

How so? It's a well known fact that Toulon have more money than sense and that players are reluctant to be moving about the year before the World Cup (unless to move back home to get a shot)


Also which All Blacks have played ITM this year? I don't mean previously capped players btw, I mean players currently in the squad or competing for a World Cup berth.

From the current trinations squad:

Rene Ranger
Aaron Cruden
John Afoa
Israel Dagg
Colin Slade
Corey Flynn
Alby Matthewson
Ben Franks
Sam Whitelock
Anthony Boric
Liam Messam
Victor Vito
Benson Stanley
Richard Kahui (This week)

All Blacks coming back from injury or out of squad but still very much in world cup frame:

Adam Thompson
Brendon Leonard
Mike Delaney
Daniel Braid
Tanerau Latimer
Zac Guildford
Hosea Gear
Luke McAllister
Chris Jack
Andy Ellis
Wyatt Crockett
Jamie Macintosh
Hika Elliot
Rodney So'oialo
Neemia Tialata
Jason Eaton (this week)

And its only just the mid point of the season, from this week the rest of the All Blacks are going to be flowing into the competition for the rest of the year. Your "no allblacks" assertion doesn't really carry much weight

 

[Feicarsinn]

I thought we all knew SBW turned down a 'HUGE' amount to play here, thats old news here and in France. So like I said before he would have been one of the highest paid players in the Top 14 and thats correct.

If you were watching the ITM like many things you've said Feicarr you'd know that All Blacks have been playing ITM. Oh and yes this years All Blacks have been playing ITM, I know who they are but geez mate cmon...you said you watched ITM.

Indeed I have, but if your best All Blacks aren't playing in it (and we know they're not) why would the All Blacks play some 'stars of the top14' team, as you previously said? That wouldn't tell us anything about the strength of the two leagues. It'd be like the Lions playing to prove how strong the English Premiership is.

 

[ranger]

Indeed I have, but if your best All Blacks aren't playing in it (and we know they're not) why would the All Blacks play some 'stars of the top14' team, as you previously said? That wouldn't tell us anything about the strength of the two leagues. It'd be like the Lions playing to prove how strong the English Premiership is.

Im sure the top 14 stars vs the All Blacks i just mentioned would be just as close of a match.. Also how many games do the likes of Ma'a Nonu have to play to be considered "enough". how about 5/13 or 7/15 as is looking the case.. is that enough for you to consider them part of the competition?