[Six Nations 2018] Round 2: England vs Wales (10/02/2018)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

At an absolute minimum england have 3 world class players which everyone would agree on - Itoje, Farrell, and Billy Vunipola. But I'd also say that launchbury is world class, and although they both have room to improve, watson and daly are extremely close. Judging by last six nations and the lions tour, Lawes is too, but not as a 6. Mako Vunipola is one hell of a player and his scrummaging is better these days. And this is a fairly conservative estimate of our world class players.

 

[bushytop]

At an absolute minimum england have 3 world class players which everyone would agree on - Itoje, Farrell, and Billy Vunipola. But I'd also say that launchbury is world class, and although they both have room to improve, watson and daly are extremely close. Judging by last six nations and the lions tour, Lawes is too, but not as a 6. Mako Vunipola is one hell of a player and his scrummaging is better these days. And this is a fairly conservative estimate of our world class players.

Starting to sound like a commando from the shires

 

[TommiG88]

Jones has triggered a lot of welsh fans with some harmless comments.

Funny how the BBC report Jones' comments, but not Gatland's.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Starting to sound like a commando from the shires

Ouch..
To be clear, I'm not saying all of those players definitely ARE world class but they all at least enter into the conversation. And bear in mind that two years ago I might have said we have 0 world class players, I think it's a sign of how far some players have come under Jones. Also I think you have to start to be a little sceptical about this idea that england have no world class players, they are just successful because of how they are as a team. I think our sustained success rules that out.

 

[bushytop]

Ouch..
To be clear, I'm not saying all of those players definitely ARE world class but they all at least enter into the conversation. And bear in mind that two years ago I might have said we have 0 world class players, I think it's a sign of how far some players have come under Jones. Also I think you have to start to be a little sceptical about this idea that england have no world class players, they are just successful because of how they are as a team. I think our sustained success rules that out.

Here's a like for the 'ouch'.

 

[bushytop]

Ouch..
To be clear, I'm not saying all of those players definitely ARE world class but they all at least enter into the conversation. And bear in mind that two years ago I might have said we have 0 world class players, I think it's a sign of how far some players have come under Jones. Also I think you have to start to be a little sceptical about this idea that england have no world class players, they are just successful because of how they are as a team. I think our sustained success rules that out.

Oh and don't you worry, we all know England have world class players... Mako, Maro, Billie, Farrell, JJ and Watson are all world class in my opinion.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

At an absolute minimum england have 3 world class players which everyone would agree on - Itoje, Farrell, and Billy Vunipola. But I'd also say that launchbury is world class, and although they both have room to improve, watson and daly are extremely close. Judging by last six nations and the lions tour, Lawes is too, but not as a 6. Mako Vunipola is one hell of a player and his scrummaging is better these days. And this is a fairly conservative estimate of our world class players.

I agree largely on your post here. I don't think anyone can argue against Itoje, Farrell and Billy Vunipola being world class.
However I think the term 'world class' is bandied out too much these days. Some people think that world class should refer to a player that could get into squad of 23 (starting XV plus subs). I personally feel too many players are considered world class. Lawes isn't there I don't think and nor is Mako (yet). I think Watson is one of the best international wingers in Europe and I think he is close to world class based on the 23 man squad idea but not quite there - off the top of my head Ioane, Nadolo, Tuisova, Naholo and even Steff Evans (who I rate very very highly) are better.
Interesting discussion area though as to what 'world class' really is.

 

[bushytop]

I agree largely on your post here. I don't think anyone can argue against Itoje, Farrell and Billy Vunipola being world class.
However I think the term 'world class' is bandied out too much these days. Some people think that world class should refer to a player that could get into squad of 23 (starting XV plus subs). I personally feel too many players are considered world class. Lawes isn't there I don't think and nor is Mako (yet). I think Watson is one of the best international wingers in Europe and I think he is close to world class based on the 23 man squad idea but not quite there - off the top of my head Ioane, Nadolo, Tuisova, Naholo and even Steff Evans (who I rate very very highly) are better.
Interesting discussion area though as to what 'world class' really is.

I generally go with match day 23... but having said that in that case I wouldn't actually have JJ. The other English players I mentioned though... pretty much.

 

[bushytop]

I don't have sky so just went with what was on the England rugby page
Does mix just show whatever is the biggest game happening on their other channels at that moment? Like a greatest hits channel?

Dunno mate, it was just the channel I had come to first and set to record... sounds like it's probably pretty much as you suggested though.

 

[bushytop]

Jones has triggered a lot of welsh fans with some harmless comments.

Funny how the BBC report Jones' comments, but not Gatland's.

Jones wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't try to put the pressure on a fly half making his second competitive start for Wales.... at Tickers against the second best team in the world... expecting more to come.

 

[Which Tyler]

Of course, regardless of definitions of "world class" there are an awful lot who wouldn't include Farrell. He may be inarguable for some (including most of the media), whilst for others you'd he's nothing better than solid at international level. Hell, there are still some out there who still think he's substandard at international level.
However inarguable he may be, you'll get a lot of argument - personally, I go with "decent international" but n better than that, unless all you care about is attitude and kicking from the tee.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I agree largely on your post here. I don't think anyone can argue against Itoje, Farrell and Billy Vunipola being world class.
However I think the term 'world class' is bandied out too much these days. Some people think that world class should refer to a player that could get into squad of 23 (starting XV plus subs). I personally feel too many players are considered world class. Lawes isn't there I don't think and nor is Mako (yet). I think Watson is one of the best international wingers in Europe and I think he is close to world class based on the 23 man squad idea but not quite there - off the top of my head Ioane, Nadolo, Tuisova, Naholo and even Steff Evans (who I rate very very highly) are better.
Interesting discussion area though as to what 'world class' really is.

I don't know that is bandied around that much - I think if anything it's the inverse in that people talk about people not being world class and creating an insanely demanding threshold.
Steff Evans better than Anthony Watson is very out there....very.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Of course, regardless of definitions of "world class" there are an awful lot who wouldn't include Farrell. He may be inarguable for some (including most of the media), whilst for others you'd he's nothing better than solid at international level. Hell, there are still some out there who still think he's substandard at international level.
However inarguable he may be, you'll get a lot of argument - personally, I go with "decent international" but n better than that, unless all you care about is attitude and kicking from the tee.

And I and many on here were one of those a few years ago, and when he was playing at 10 for england. He has come a very very long way.

 

[Which Tyler]

And I and many on here were one of those a few years ago, and when he was playing at 10 for england. He has come a very very long way.

He has, and against Italy he actually added some IC play. If he keeps that up, I'll consider him. But ahead of SBW, or Fofana? Keep it up, and he reaches the likes of Henshaw in the second tier.

 

[bushytop]

Of course, regardless of definitions of "world class" there are an awful lot who wouldn't include Farrell. He may be inarguable for some (including most of the media), whilst for others you'd he's nothing better than solid at international level. Hell, there are still some out there who still think he's substandard at international level.
However inarguable he may be, you'll get a lot of argument - personally, I go with "decent international" but n better than that, unless all you care about is attitude and kicking from the tee.

Personally, it is definitely his game management and command of the team that makes him a world class player... he is well above functional judged as a player alone but with how the bosses and generals a game he is an asset for any team in my opinion.

 

[dullonien]

I don't know that is bandied around that much - I think if anything it's the inverse in that people talk about people not being world class and creating an insanely demanding threshold.

Yeah I agree with that. If we look at no 8 as an example, arguments can be made for Vunipola, Faletau, Read, and maybe Isa all to be the best in their position. So I'd argue all are world class players.

That certainly doesn't fit into some people's criteria.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We had the whole world class debate on another thread. Hugely subjective.

A slightly different way of looking at it is who is indispensable to the team, whose absence materially weakens the side and makes opposition coaches happy. Faz is one, Billy another. But not Itoje, if he's out we bring in Lawes or Launch. Slightly different style / balance, but not exactly worse. Watson's another we might want to wrap in cotton wool.

If we are to use "world class", there's a difference between a world class player and a player capable of world class performances. And that's proven consistency over time, which is more valuable to a team than someone fluctuating between stellar and ordinary. By that rationale Launch may be our premier lock even if he doesn't hit the spectacular heights that Itoje and Lawes occasionally do.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I agree largely on your post here. I don't think anyone can argue against Itoje, Farrell and Billy Vunipola being world class.
However I think the term 'world class' is bandied out too much these days. Some people think that world class should refer to a player that could get into squad of 23 (starting XV plus subs). I personally feel too many players are considered world class. Lawes isn't there I don't think and nor is Mako (yet). I think Watson is one of the best international wingers in Europe and I think he is close to world class based on the 23 man squad idea but not quite there - off the top of my head Ioane, Nadolo, Tuisova, Naholo and even Steff Evans (who I rate very very highly) are better.
Interesting discussion area though as to what 'world class' really is.

In what parts of the game do you think Steff Evans is better than Watson? Interested to know.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

In what parts of the game do you think Steff Evans is better than Watson? Interested to know.

His nationality

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Johnny Sexton is the only world class player in the world, if you disagree with me you're just proving you're a chode.