[Six Nations 2018] Round 1: Italy Vs England (04/02/2018)

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

TBH I think Brown gets treated very unfairly. A lot of the criticisms people have of him are fair; he can often be a bit greedy and doesn't have the flair that he used to have in attack, but he's still very dependable and clearly has all the passion in the world. People clearly just love to hate him and pick up on everything he does while his rivals just seem to be immune to criticism. For example; a few weeks ago when Watson got stepped by that second row Beirne, no one batted an eye, but if that had been Brown he would've been burnt at the stake by the media and England fans.

 

[curtbob7]

Without being callous is Italy really a step up from playing any Premiership side?

Yeah, Irish.

 

[JJFlash]

TBH I think Brown gets treated very unfairly. A lot of the criticisms people have of him are fair; he can often be a bit greedy and doesn't have the flair that he used to have in attack, but he's still very dependable and clearly has all the passion in the world. People clearly just love to hate him and pick up on everything he does while his rivals just seem to be immune to criticism. For example; a few weeks ago when Watson got stepped by that second row Beirne, no one batted an eye, but if that had been Brown he would've been burnt at the stake by the media and England fans.

Some fair points, but will he really be the first choice fullback at the World Cup? I think not and Eddie should, in my opinion, be playing someone else with Japan in mind, and not necessarily Watson.

 

[MarkyH]

I don't remember seeing Brown drop a high ball. Is always very competitive from the high ball. He's not rapid, but carries ok into traffic as I think he picks good lines.

...but...

He doesn't pass when he should, his not as fast or as exciting as Watson.

I don't mind seeing him in the team, but think we need to give Watson a run at 15 just in case Brown is injured (see SH too).

 

[Hap]

Yeah, Irish.

That's why we sent McLean to play there

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

TBH I think Brown gets treated very unfairly. A lot of the criticisms people have of him are fair; he can often be a bit greedy and doesn't have the flair that he used to have in attack, but he's still very dependable and clearly has all the passion in the world. People clearly just love to hate him and pick up on everything he does while his rivals just seem to be immune to criticism. For example; a few weeks ago when Watson got stepped by that second row Beirne, no one batted an eye, but if that had been Brown he would've been burnt at the stake by the media and England fans.

Some fair points. But Brown's the safe option. I don't mind my THP being geriatric and safe(ish), but does geriatric and safe in one of the prime attacking positions win RWCs?

Wish some of our forwards had his anger though.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The issue is that Jones explicitly stated he wanted numerous options for each position and yet at 9 and 15 in particular has never made any attempt to play anyone except his favourites. If Brown, Care or Youngs suffer injury or a drop in form we are left with relative inexperience in a world cup. He doesn't need to win this 6N, he does need to get proper depth in the squad in all positions. We gain absolutely nothing playing Brown, Hartley, Robshaw and Haskell every game they are free. If Brown is the safe option that means there is even less reason to play him, we know exactly what he offers and now we need to see what the others offer. It's the one aspect of Jones' coaching that I just can't fathom at all.

 

[Scotty]

Ive seen watson many times at FB and he seems safe under high balls and is not afraid to contest for them in the air. What defencive failings does he have over brown because he offers alot more in attack but curious if he is the full package or does have work ons before becoming first choice? And i know experience is what he needs to get better but im just asking at this moment what are his weaknesses?

 

[martinspoonboy1]

[QUOTEL="Old Hooker, post: 886401, member: 73144"]Some fair points. But Brown's the safe option. I don't mind my THP being geriatric and safe(ish), but does geriatric and safe in one of the prime attacking positions win RWCs?

Wish some of our forwards had his anger though.[/QUOTE]

Bit harsh, his pace isn't what it used to be but he's no Goode. The intercept ca Argentina in the summer and The step and offload was majestic.

I posted a link to ted talk style thing a few days ago where Eddie basically says why players like brown are in the team and potentially others miss out. He basically says he wants 13 of the starting 15 to perform at 7/10 every single game and only allows two 'star players' (who's performances can range from 9/10 to 4/10) in any starting line up because more leads to too much variance in performance.

Brown is a solid 7/10 pretty much every game, hence being fullback over other more exciting options that can range from 9/10 -4/10. He rarely has a shocker and allows a level of consistency in the back 3. Reason he doesn't choose Watson at fullback, care at scrum half, Roku on the wing and maybe even Armand in the BR as he already has his two 'star players'

For my money Joseph is one who can range from 9/10 -4/10 . Any others you guys would put in the inconsistent 'star player' category?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

May has had some stinkers for England, but also some outstanding games.

 

[RedruthRFC]

For my money Joseph is one who can range from 9/10 -4/10 . Any others you guys would put in the inconsistent 'star player' category?

Ben Youngs.

Interesting premise, I've seen that mentioned elsewhere on here, but I have to question whether it's more random Jones BS. If you're generous and assume that the two stars perform at 10/10 every time out, you've got a team performing at 7.26/10, never any higher. How often does a team performing at this level win three knockout games at a RWC against increasingly strong opposition? Not often I've have thought.

 

[Which Tyler]

Ford and May are surely the 4-10/10 players. You could make an argument for Watson too.
Young's never reaches as high as 8/10, Joseph never as low as 6/10 (seriously, where on earth does this "JJ is inconsistent" bull come from? Has anyone ever seen him have an actual bad game? Or does "he only touched the ball 4 times never with less than 2 defenders in attendance, but was a rock in defence" really count as a 4/10 performance now?)

 

[Scotty]

JJ is a wierd one, his defence is strong and picks some great lines but how well he does depends on the ball given. Quick ball sees him test a strong defence but slow ball amd he has no power to break the line. Very unlikely he getd less than 6/10 for his defence.

Brown regardless of the game played he doesnt do enough wrong to get less than a 6/10 because of his defence and security under a high ball

Youngs for me will never get a 10/10 but can have a shocker as low as 4/10 because of his slow ball delivery. He is a very good all round player and good at sniping but we need a replacement (yes been talked about alot...so lets not linger on that point)

The final one for me is Cole... can do some great stuff sometimes but so fustrating and giving away stupid avoidable penalties.

 

[Juggler]

Ford and May are surely the 4-10/10 players. You could make an argument for Watson too.
Young's never reaches as high as 8/10, Joseph never as low as 6/10 (seriously, where on earth does this "JJ is inconsistent" bull come from? Has anyone ever seen him have an actual bad game? Or does "he only touched the ball 4 times never with less than 2 defenders in attendance, but was a rock in defence" really count as a 4/10 performance now?)

Yes absolutely this. JJ is out there waiting waiting waiting for some proper service and to put into space. He can only play in attack on the speed of service that happens inside him, which is hung up by a) Youngs and then b) Farrell. Great in defence. Not just good but great. Underrated because he is underused. All too conservative.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hogg shows what a FB can do. Maybe not perfect defensively, but he's a game changer. He's exceptional, but maybe Watson could do something similar for Eng given a run of games. If it didn't work we could go back to Brown with no damage done. It's the unwillingness to try that grates.

We want our team to be peaking at the RWC. Brown will be 34 and he won't be improving between now and then. It's not just about pace, but at that age the legs can go quite quickly. Margins are fine, that wouldn't escape opposition analysts.

We need experience and continuity, but if we're playing the likes of Hartley, Cole, Robshaw, Hask and Brown next year it should be after others have been given a fair crack and found wanting.

Agree with Redruth that the 2 stars is BS. We definitely need consistent players, but if we're serious about Japan we also need more stardust. Brown's solid and reliable - lot to be said for that - but can you see him conjuring up a match winning play against the ABs?

Lawes used to be hugely uneven, but is much more consistent now. Consistent 7.5 with a few 9s. His 5s have been consigned to history.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ford and May are surely the 4-10/10 players. You could make an argument for Watson too.

May's still prone to daft moments, but he doesn't really vasilate as much as he did. Agree on Ford though - to my mind 10 is THE key position and I just don't want that fluctuation from my linchpin.

Don't think Watson does terrible. But as Juggler says about JJ, any back is only as good as the ball they get.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Also consistency tends to come with experience and inconsistency with inexperience. Jones wants players who can be 7/10 every have and I fail to see how Watson can't be that player. Apparently JJ has been told to stand deeper to have more time on the ball, I just hope he had told those inside him to actually give him decent ball rather than shoveled on rubbish.

 

[RedruthRFC]

The final one for me is Cole... can do some great stuff sometimes but so fustrating and giving away stupid avoidable penalties.

Good point, if he fails to out-scrumage his opposite number and has one of those days when he gets pinged every time he has a chance of a turnover, he's struggling to get into single figures!

 

[stus768]

Ben Youngs.

Interesting premise, I've seen that mentioned elsewhere on here, but I have to question whether it's more random Jones BS. If you're generous and assume that the two stars perform at 10/10 every time out, you've got a team performing at 7.26/10, never any higher. How often does a team performing at this level win three knockout games at a RWC against increasingly strong opposition? Not often I've have thought.

Agreed is bs. Surely it is the job of the coach to make the inconsistent players consistently play at their high range. Or at least during big games (which he failed to do vs Ireland last year). As you say u won't win a WC with 7/10 team because u may be consistent but in knockout rugby you will come up against a team who raises their game to a higher level at least once- see Argentina vs Ireland in 2015.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Yes absolutely this. JJ is out there waiting waiting waiting for some proper service and to put into space. He can only play in attack on the speed of service that happens inside him, which is hung up by a) Youngs and then b) Farrell. Great in defence. Not just good but great. Underrated because he is underused. All too conservative.

I think it's becuase he does have those superstar games - scotland last year, Italy the year before and then anonymous games. Might not be his fault but just games where you wouldn't know he was playing without Brian Moore saying it. Also vs Italy last year he got run over twice by Campagnaro but hey ho, no one really shone that day!