SH players in Ireland.

[Jockstap]

At the Moment this really only applies to Munster, every year they seem to replace an Irish player in the Munster Squad with one of those bleddy Immigrants. Comin over here takin our jobs and our women. Next season the likely Munster backline will be...

15 Warwick
14 Howlett
13 Mafi
12 De Villiers
11 Earls maybe
10 O'Gara
9 O'Leary

which looks fricken awesome but I ask you what about the young Irish players who want to get a crack at Heineken Cup level rugby in order to be judged for International level hmm, WHAT? That's the bad but then I suppose having all these World Class players to learn from can only benefit the young guys, and they'll know what level of intensity they need to play at to contend with the SH Nations and maybe make this a constant part of their game? Humphreys mentioned that when O'Driscoll came on the Irish scene they had to raise their game in training to the level he demands. What think ye?

 

[Flux]

Well, I'm not from Ireland obviously, but I don't think it's not the best situation really. Yes, it's going to help the Irish teams in the short term, but in the long term, what's it going to do to Irish rugby? I know it's a very old and abused argument, but it must hinder younger players coming through. As Ireland is going into a good patch with their rugby at the moment, I think they should be looking to go from strength to strength, rather than putting obstacles in the way of their young talent.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Sep 1 2009, 06:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well, I'm not from Ireland obviously, but I don't think it's not the best situation really. Yes, it's going to help the Irish teams in the short term, but in the long term, what's it going to do to Irish rugby? I know it's a very old and abused argument, but it must hinder younger players coming through. As Ireland is going into a good patch with their rugby at the moment, I think they should be looking to go from strength to strength, rather than putting obstacles in the way of their young talent.[/b]

I definitely see the merit to your argument but I don't agree with it. While it's plain to see that having an overseas player in the squad may push an Irish player down the pecking order, if the the Irish player is good enough he'll be in the team. It could also be argued that being surrounded by the likes of Doug Howlett, Rua Tipoki and Lifeimi Mafi has brought on the game of Keith Earls, for example, far more than had he played alongside Anthony "caught by a 2nd row" Horgan, Barry Murphy and Denis Hurley. It's all well and good saying that Irish teams should be made up of solely Irish players but if that leads to mediocre results and mediocre players getting gametime, that affects confidence and filters through to an average national team. I think the current balance of 6 or so non-Irish qualified players in a squad is just right.

 

[feicarsinn]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Sep 1 2009, 06:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well, I'm not from Ireland obviously, but I don't think it's not the best situation really. Yes, it's going to help the Irish teams in the short term, but in the long term, what's it going to do to Irish rugby? I know it's a very old and abused argument, but it must hinder younger players coming through. As Ireland is going into a good patch with their rugby at the moment, I think they should be looking to go from strength to strength, rather than putting obstacles in the way of their young talent.[/b]

I'm of the opinion it's quite good for Irish rugby actually. Take a look at Munster, they had awesome Irish forward but the backs they were producing were cack and holding them back(hah rhyme). But the 2 or three lads added helped expose them to the top levels of european rugby and the success that came with it gave the Irish contingent great self belief and confidence. It also can't do the up and comping lads like Earls or Jones and harm to learn off the likes of Mafi and Howlett. The coaches over here are quite responsible with their uses of foreign imports so if the young lads show potential they'll get a chance. I'll admit with privately owned clubs and franchises it's a completely different kettle of fish.

 

[monkeypigeon]

Well, interesting subject.

I noticed last year when we had a few injury problems and international players absent around the autumn internationals last year that Munster seemed to have a policy of picking only 3 of the non Irish qualified players (NQI) in the starting 15 at any one time.

We were short backrow players (a rare occasion in Munster) and Warwick, Mafi and Howlett were starting resulting in Melck not starting. Resulting in the emergence of Niall Ronan as a first team player.

When De Villiers arives I hope they limit this selection to a max of 3 NQI in the starting 15. And I see no reason why that can't be managed.

I suspect that the deal Munster made with London Irish is that Munster keep him for another year and then he heads off to London Irish, so I suspect Munster will try faze him out and only use him at flyhalf when Rog is absent and play Jones and Ears at fullback.

Howlet is another issue. I think he's losing a bit of pace, as is natural and I noticed at the end of last season he seemed to be les confident and failed to take a couple of chances that he would have taken in previous seasons when he cut infield instead of backing his pace for the corner. At the moment we have Danny Barnes coming through and looking dangerous on the wing and Denis Hurley switching to wing where he looks a lot more comfortable as a powerfull runner. Dougie has already said in the papers that he's interested in moving back to NZ pre-world cup and he only has a year left in his contract. Emerging wings + recession, I think he's gonna be offered a much smaller contract resulting in him moving back South.

Centre is gonna be an interesting one and Deasy is going to be need to make a stand in the next couple of weeks to show that he can play at least Magners League during the year at centre. And between himself, Earls and Murphy I see no reason why De Villiers - Mafi should be guarenteed as the starting combo all year.

Munster said at the start of the year that they'd be focusing on bringing through acedemy players in the next couple of years. And in fairness they've only brought in 2 foriegners - De Villiers and french prop fella (and to be fair, we're desperately short in depth at prop), Morland of course is only a short term backup player and will be gone at Christmas.

So to be fair, I don't think there'll be all 4 foriegners in our backline this year. 2/3 most of the time I suspect and by this time next year I suspect it'll only be De Villiers and Mafi left there.

A year from now?

9. O'Leary
10. O'Gara (sigh)
11. Earls
12. De Villiers
13. Mafi
14. Hurley
15. Jones

and even at that the option remains with the likes of Dowling or Conan O'Brien or Danny Barnes coming in on Earls wing and Warls playing at 12, 13 or 15 and that's leaving out Murphy who's played fantastic all last season. Seriously not worried about it.

My worries lie at prop. Not with this foriegner issue.

 

[shazbooger]

The question is all around the quality of the players that are brought in. Take a look at what Le Roux and Elsom have done in Leinster, Seamus and Halstead for Munster. There is no question that the presence of top quality players breeds top quality players. The talent is still coming through the academy in Leinster with Kearney, Fitzgerald, Sexton, Healy, Toner, O'Brien and McFadden pretty much established and the likes of Macken, Conway, The Ruddocks, Morris and Kearney coming through again. The problem is giving them game time, and to be fair to Cheka, hes managed it fairly well for us.

The only foreign signings I'd question in Munster and Leinster would be the likes of that French Prop, Berne and maybe Strauss (though runour has it were going to push him through to Irish qualification (another debate for another day)). I dont think its as bad as it could be in Ireland, but then again its hard to see the impact it'll have in the future. Look at the disaster that is French and English international rugby at the moment? Foreign imports are killing their international game. It could well happen to Welsh and Irish sides too.

 

[alexrugby]

SH players in Ireland Good or Bad?

Good

 

[O'Rothlain]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHh3ykPQEl4[/url]

 

[Flux]

snoopy snoopy dog dog and feicarsinn I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not going to argue because it's hard to know how I'd feel in your situation, seeing as that type of situation isn't generated in New Zealand, so if yuo think it's okay, it must be. It's a very good point that being around such good players will help with the development of young Irish players, and so long as they keep on having a positive impact on Irish teams and Irish rugby, I can't see the problem with it either. If anything it has a bigger impact on the countries the SH players leave to go North, but I'm not going to get into that here.

 

[feicarsinn]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (O'Rothlain @ Sep 4 2009, 03:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHh3ykPQEl4[/url][/b]

Curse you copyright restrictions!

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Sep 4 2009, 04:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If anything it has a bigger impact on the countries the SH players leave to go North, but I'm not going to get into that here.[/b]

Off topic but how do you think NZ solve their problem of talent migrating en masse to European clubs?

 

[Bullitt]

Amazing when you consider 2 years ago the Kiwis were the first to tell us that they has so much strength in depth; 6 players retire and a furter 8 no longer qualify for the All Blacks, and suddenly it's the fault of "them northern hemisphere" that things aren't so rosy now.

So whatever happened to the 2nd and 3rd All Black squads that were all conquering 3 years ago?

 

[Steve-o]

Oh come off it. NZ have AMAZING depth, no one can argue that. Testament to their depth is that there are more professional rugby players from NZ in Europe than there are in NZ! More than half of their player is ineligible for the AB's, FACT!

 

[monkeypigeon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Sep 4 2009, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Oh come off it. NZ have AMAZING depth, no one can argue that. Testament to their depth is that there are more professional rugby players from NZ in Europe than there are in NZ! More than half of their player is ineligible for the AB's, FACT![/b]

All these SH players should form an Exiles team and do a tour. They could get me to manage it (Financially) and we'll split the profit's even. And give one share of the profits to charity so everyone thinks we're so nice.

 

[Steve-o]

Great! Even more money up north then!

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Sep 4 2009, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Great! Even more money up north then![/b]

To give you an idea about "all this money", Saints released their end of figures recently. Over 12 months, the PLC business made a profit of a whopping £19,990.

£10million turnover, £20k profit.

Minted.

 

[Steve-o]

Your point? Are you saying NH clubs are poor now? Players aren't exactly going up north because of the weather.

 

[Bullitt]

They're certainly not as minted as your lot like to make out. Saints are only behind Gloucester and Leicester as richest club in England.

 

[Steve-o]

Thing is most NH clubs have a private owner who provides capital, so those profit margins don't paint the full picture at all. Fact is contracts up north are more lucrative, dunno why you're trying to convince us otherwise. Are you not comfortable with that? Would you feel better if players were moving up north for the quality of the rugby instead? That seems to be an insecurity with most NH supporters. Except the French, they just don't give a f@%!.

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Sep 4 2009, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Thing is most NH clubs have a private owner who provides capital, so those profit margins don't paint the full picture at all.[/b]

They do, the sugar daddies are no longer sugar daddies and the PLC companies are expected to stand on their own feet. Then you all forget about ht e squad wage cap which means the total salary of an entire playing squad (including academy players) is limited to something like £3million - It sounds a lot, but split between 40 players it becomes an average of £75k, then factor in several key players or internationals will command 2/3 times that amount and all of a sudden the majority of the squad doesn't earn very much at all, because it's not available to go around.

All this tripe that bullshit tabloids such as the NZ Herald publishes has infected every mind in the SH who are looking for any excuse to slag off the northern game as though it's some inter-hemisphere contest, even more pathetic then the league v union debate.