Serge Blanco & France

[FrenchFan]

no they won't necessarily be over the moon at all, they're still French and understand where our nation is heading if we accept Rory Kockott on our team. Nobody in the world (except South Africa) thinks Kockott "isn't good enough", that's not at all what's at stake here and you obviously know that.

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sorry BE you're not credible on that on. How many Castres fans have you spoken to in Qatar?! They're only up the road for me. I never miss a game at Castres as it's a local derby for us Toulousains.

I have spoken to many Castres fans and I have yet to meet one who objects to Kockott wearing the Blue shirt.

 

[FrenchFan]

no they won't necessarily be over the moon at all, they're still French and understand where our nation is heading if we accept Rory Kockott on our team. Nobody in the world (except South Africa) thinks Kockott "isn't good enough", that's not at all what's at stake here and you obviously know that.



It's not fake to "have a national side that doesn't mirror what the top 14 has become", you're back to your old fallacious argumentative tricks again ! There isn't really a discussion to be had here though...having lots of foreigners in clubs has no relation with the notion we should have lots in the national side. Yes, we'll poach a couple along the way, but in theory we should be able to have a 95% French squad without resorting to such moves.
And what when the whole world calls our team a phoney, bought out team ? You can't retreat into your neurotic bubble and say "to hell with what others think", it's obvious France should represent French Rugby, and we want to show the world what we can do, don't fool yourself. And, no, just no, French Rugby isn't foreigners who live in France Rugby. French Rugby is not paying ex-AllBlacks and Wallabies and huge Saffa forwards. French Rugby is Thierry Dusautoir, Louis Picamoles, FTD, Plisson, Parra, Doussain, Pélissié, Dulin, Huget, Guitoune, Fall, O'Connor, Domingo, Mas, Kayser, Szar, Burban, Maestri, Fofana, Lamerat....that's FRENCH RUGBY. A couple of poaches, okay, but not more.

it's not a fallacious trick. It's reality. Kockott is elligible. Only takes 3 years to become elligible. That goes fast. The number of elligible players is growing.
What about Clermont and now Brive setting up their Academies in Fiji? Look at Naikataci. He has been capped already. He is a frog like you and me. Grow up.

This trend is picking up. We've never had Fijian players before. We've 2 saffas. More will come. Kockott and Tulou are next. That's more than a "couple of poaches"

This is only a reflection of where the domestic game has gone. We're also a country of emigrants. Look at our soccer team.

 

[Big Ewis]

sorry BE you're not credible on that on. How many Castres fans have you spoken to in Qatar?! They're only up the road for me. I never miss a game at Castres as it's a local derby for us Toulousains.

I have spoken to many Castres fans and I have yet to meet one who objects to Kockott wearing the Blue shirt.

have met none in Qatar, but I hang around the web a lot so I do know what I'm saying. Like I said, they won't "necessarily be over the moon at all", they're still French citizens who care about the future of the xv de France, and the general consensus is "we don't want him". You know, the internet speaks volumes, and if you want a good assessment of what a population/group of people thinks nowadays you go online and read attentively. I go to YouTube, Facebook, Rugby-Rama, Rugbynistère and other French forums/websites, and what I read is "no, no, no !". Now if you've really spoken to many Castrais who are delighted to have him wear bleus, you may have a point, but I don't think they ALL want that, as they are French when it comes to the xv de France, if anything they want him preserved for their beloved Castres Olympique and don't want him to waste himself on our current dilemma-crisis. You complain about it every post or so for Toulouse, so surely you get that point !

This is only a reflection of where the domestic game has gone. We're also a country of emigrants. Look at our soccer team.

no no no no no...hold up. The fact we're a post-colonial entity and civilization and that we may reap some benefits from that (not many !....) by having black African, from Maghreb or Wallis and Futuna/French Polynesia athletes who lend their athletic ability is one thing - and then poaching is entirely another.
- Antonie Claassen has nothing to do with France, he isn't French. He has a large history and past well before France, and that includes Rugby-wise too, not just identity.
- Zidane is French, born and raised and trained here.

 

[FrenchFan]

have met none in Qatar, but I hang around the web a lot so I do know what I'm saying. Like I said, they won't "necessarily be over the moon at all", they're still French citizens who care about the future of the xv de France, and the general consensus is "we don't want him". You know, the internet speaks volumes, and if you want a good assessment of what a population/group of people thinks nowadays you go online and read attentively. I go to YouTube, Facebook, Rugby-Rama, Rugbynistère and other French forums/websites, and what I read is "no, no, no !". Now if you've really spoken to many Castrais who are delighted to have him wear bleus, you may have a point, but I don't think they ALL want that, as they are French when it comes to the xv de France, if anything they want him preserved for their beloved Castres Olympique and don't want him to waste himself on our current dilemma-crisis. You complain about it every post or so for Toulouse, so surely you get that point !

I disagree. Generally you cannot tell who these online fans are. They don't always say or show where they're from, what club they support. They're too anonymous.

That assesment is not reliable. It is skewed by the anonymity of the posters.

Im talking about real fans here, if they're at the stadium wearing their team's jersey, you know who you're talking to.

And even in forums I have not seen an overwhelming majority of posts against Kockott's inclusion, on the contrary.

But the point is it does not matter that they ALL want for it to happen. It's not a majority-based vote!

 

[Big Ewis]

dude, literally, some guys are called "Castresfan101" or wtvr, have the C.O. flag on their avatar, and talk about the matters in a clearly accurate, real life way, backed up by other users and like 25 green thumbs-up. Those guys are most probably ppl who live in Castres and go watch their team play, and anyways, they certainly know their team based on the comments they make.

And I'm not calling on a democratic majority consensus vote about Kockott, I'm just stating my collected observations: France doesn't want Kockott. Please FrenchFan, you know this to be true. I've read this EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME, on EVERY WEBSITE. Not just saying, I really have consistently for months and months now.

 

[FrenchFan]

dude, literally, some guys are called "Castresfan101" or wtvr, have the C.O. flag on their avatar, and talk about the matters in a clearly accurate, real life way, backed up by other users and like 25 green thumbs-up. Those guys are most probably ppl who live in Castres and go watch their team play, and anyways, they certainly know their team based on the comments they make.

And I'm not calling on a democratic majority consensus vote about Kockott, I'm just stating my collected observations: France doesn't want Kockott. Please FrenchFan, you know this to be true. I've read this EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME, on EVERY WEBSITE. Not just saying, I really have consistently for months and months now.

yes but that's not the majority. How is that more reliable than talking to real fans?! it's not.

I have seen many posts in favour of Kockott's inclusion. I don't spend my days collecting stats on these I can't prove it and I coudln't be bothered. But it's just my experience. Let's agree to disagree.

I agree there's no urgency about his case. There's enough choice as SH. But you can't exclude him. He is elligible now. And PSA's successor next year may call him.

 

[Big Ewis]

I can't agree to merely disagree with you on that one man. I've seen way too much against Kockott to just let this slide, I'm talking French ppl as a whole not specifically Castrais. I'd be extremely surprised if a *majority* of French fans were in favor of this happening, considering the collected wave of anti-Kockott I've so consistently observed for so long now.
It just isn't common to find somebody going "yeah, fk it, let's just take him" from French fans. It just isn't. But anyways, that's French fans, their opinion has absolutely no weight and Kockott for France will happen or not regardless of it.

Me, again, I hope it doesn't happen, if it does, hopefully it's not the beginning of a de-frenchization process of the France team, that we will later regard as the first building brick to that process. A starting scrumhalf's role, and if he's our by-default pick from then on, that's a pretty big part of the team. Accepting a 28 year old player, this late into his career, nah. I ain't voting yes to that.

Again, Nakaitaci, Bernard Le Roux, those guys arrived so early in France, when they were 19-20 years old, and have played all their real pro ball in the same French club (Clermont, Racing). Their growth and maturation where it matters being athletes will have occurred within our borders, surrounded by our staff and players, in our infrastructures, in our culture of play. Basically, they really are what one can objectively call "a Top 14 product".
Yes, in these two examples we benefit from Le Roux's Saffa forward size and love of rucks - and Nakaitaci's typical Fijian athleticism, but we'll have polished the diamonds. So that's somewhat legit to me.

Kockott has been through all this before Castres in 2011, check out his career:



I say mmmmm.......with half a grimace on.

 

[FrenchFan]

I can't agree to merely disagree with you on that one man. I've seen way too much against Kockott to just let this slide, I'm talking French ppl as a whole not specifically Castrais.

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ah ah hilarious. That doesn't change the fact that we disagree :lol:. You can't deal with people with differing views? aah Poor thing. This forum must be a right torture

and all your points about Kockott are moot : he is elligible.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He's a cockney? Well who knew

 

[Big Ewis]

ah ah hilarious. That doesn't change the fact that we disagree :lol:. You can't deal with people with differing views? aah Poor thing. This forum must be a right torture

no problem with disagreement, but only when it's opinion, not when it's fact. France is NOT happy as a majority about Kockott joining, but I see you're having trouble with this so I'll drop it.

He's a cockney? Well who knew

har har.

 

[FrenchFan]

no problem with disagreement, but only when it's opinion, not when it's fact. France is NOT happy as a majority about Kockott joining, but I see you're having trouble with this so I'll drop it.

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he he you sneak. Yours is not fact either. You can't prove with facts that the majority are agst Kockott anymore than I can prove the opposite. You say it's fact. But I have only got your word for it. You can't prove it with stats or facts. This is why I say let's agree to disagree.

I have no problem with your opinion stating that Kockott should be out as you cannot prove it and it's a moot point since the man is elligible.

Did you pick one of the Gazelles? you need a shag BE. Big time.

 

[FrenchFan]

no no no no no...hold up. The fact we're a post-colonial entity and civilization and that we may reap some benefits from that (not many !....) by having black African, from Maghreb or Wallis and Futuna/French Polynesia athletes who lend their athletic ability is one thing - and then poaching is entirely another.
- Antonie Claassen has nothing to do with France, he isn't French. He has a large history and past well before France, and that includes Rugby-wise too, not just identity.
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Sorry Anthony Claassen IS French. He says he has completely adopted everything about his new country, not just a passport and its rugby. He said he FELT like a Frenchman. I've heard him say that on TV in fluent French.

no one put a gun on this man's head to say that. He is a freeman. He could have gone home to SA. He chose to stay here in his new home because that's what he wants. That's where his heart is. Not just his passport. Who are you to question that. Would you go and tell this man straight to his face he is not what he thinks he is and should go home. Get yourself a good life insurance then.

in the man's own words :

"I have been in France for five years and I feel better here than in South Africa," the Durban-born Claassen said.

"I don't know how to explain it, it's a matter of sensations. I like living here and I'd like to live here all my life."

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SixNations/Claassen-I-feel-better-in-France-20130214

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He wants more caps, he's hardly gonna turn around and say "Well yeah, I'm a Saffer, but for the time being I'm French and that's what matters!"

 

[FrenchFan]

He wants more caps, he's hardly gonna turn around and say "Well yeah, I'm a Saffer, but for the time being I'm French and that's what matters!"

That's not what he is saying. You're saying that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's not what he is saying. You're saying that.

No sh*t, that's what I said :huh:

My point was: While he's still in contention for caps he's going to be as French as he possibly can be. I'd be very surprised if he truly felt more French than South African, and that that wasn't just to placate the French media.

 

[Big Ewis]

"I have been in France for five years and I feel better here than in South Africa," the Durban-born Claassen said.

well in my defense of saying Claassen isn't French, everybody feels better in France than in South Africa man ! jk jk...
No Claassen is just a regular poach like France or other nations like England notably like to do...I'm cool with him playing for us because he's really been in France for a long time, since 2007 I see there, but he does have a professional Rugby past, although it wasn't much at all...but Kockott is the worst case of all as I've extensively explained my case why.

But I've got something for you, lerugbynistère had a poll and check out the results:


My bad there, and I shouldn't have called it "fact". I only meant to call it "fact" because you were talking about it like it was an opinion, I should've been more clear. It's A FACT Kockott is wanted, or A FACT he isn't, but it's not a matter of agreeing to disagree with each other was what I meant.
I'm very surprised though and still don't think France wants Kockott as a majority based of everything I've read before, as explained previously. All those things are still there.
Here's some, read all the comments there, make sure you click on the "plus de commentaires" to see them all:
http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/xv-de...visage-le-xv-de-france_sto3933666/story.shtml

"We have better than him in France; we don't need him; if he could pick a country; he'd pick S.A. immediately; we're only his rebound nation; Pélissié and Doussain are our future, easily; Kockott must want to play for France, it's the ultimate honor; he's too old anyways; he plays one good season for Castres and he's Zeus all of a sudden; no need for a foreigner !; I'd rather lose with Frenchmen than win with foreigners; problem is we can't produce players of the highest level these days and look for foreigners; I must be dreaming, we have enough good scrumhalves in France !; his recruitment is nonsensical; a jersey means something, it's not just a piece of fabric....."

List goes on and on, not a single comment in favor of selecting Kockott, or just one or two in an ocean of anti-Kockott fervor.
And I can assure you that, again, throughout Facebook or other forums and websites, I've seen a large majority similar to this banishing the notion of incorporating Kockott to France. I'm not just trying to be right.

Here's an article dedicated to the topic of "why not to select Kockott":
http://xvovalie.com/oui-9-raisons-de-ne-pas-selectionner-kockott/

Yes, others do say: "it's a matter of who's selectable. And right now, the best 9 in the Top 14 is Rory Kockott". But often that's followed by logically erroneous argumentation: they'll say "look at the All-Blacks, they're all Tongan/Samoan/Fijian, without those they'd be an average team". That may be, but those Pacific Islanders the AB pick are trained and developed as pro ball players within a NZ context and borders. They're not pro players in their countries, developed and near achievement there and then brought as a final product nice and completed to NZ.

So I don't know, I still think a majority of French fans prefer Kockott wasn't picked. But that's not opinion, it's based on the objective information I've collected throughout the years and can't do better so can't call it a fact as I wrongly did earlier.