Second Test: Australia vs. British and Irish Lions (29/06/13)

[Peat]

It's not a passable level and the reason the front row is being discussed is the inability of the forwards to break the gainline and ruck the ball out quickly enough is a big part of the blunt attacking performance - which means we need to up our presence in these areas - which means people like Adam Jones who are playing poorly in the loose come under the spotlight.

 

[irelandfan123]

poc?

B'OD has always been pocs captain...

shame he didnt play like one on saturday

I trust him that he'll come big in the end

 

[psychic duck]

Has he, though?
Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive fan of Adam, think he's the best scrummager in the world hands down.
However I've really been paying attention to his non-scrummaging play, and it really isn't up to much. I don't know whether he's just knackered after a long season, but his rucking is poor (G&G rugby pointed it out in one of their videos - he doesn't clear players out just turns up at completed rucks and lies on them) is rarely offering himself as a carrier and when he does doesn't make ground, and just is generally completely anonymous when there isn't a scrum going on.
I'll have to pay attention to him for Ospreys next season to see how he is fresh after some time off.

I'm presuming the scrum is being discussed because it leaked >1pt, which is what we lost by.

Yes, he will do much more work than he used to, and did well in the 6 Nations, especially in the Scotland game. And as I said before, he's passable and hasn't been a liability for Wales recently and in fact made as many tackles as Cole in the 6 Nations. Anyway, I'm not that bothered, if you want to judge your props on tackle counts and keep starting Marler and Vunipola ahead of Corbisiero I would be more than happy.

I will be bothered though if the Lions are stupid enough to make the same mistake they made in 2009 1st Test, and made again in taking the best scrummagers off in the 1st Test, and starting a worse scrummager than is available for the 2nd, especially with a NH ref for the 3rd Test. Coincidentally btw, the Lions have been on top of the scoreboard in every match Adam has played for the Lions in 2009 and 2013, and come off worse when he isn't.

Curiously I don't France being too bothered about Mas not offering much, Ireland learnt their lesson after the Buckley years and have settled on Ross. But it is the English who seem to have the problem and judge props on tackle counts. And hence why they have had scrum issues 2 years running in losses against Wales in the 6 Nations now, whilst France and Ireland both were the sides who held up best.

As for this discussion of front rows, the scrum won more points than it lost. 9 points from scrum, 3 from a maul, and 3 from an attacking play with no tries. Cementball tactics that don't work against Australia aren't getting enough criticism. The forwards are doing a decent enough job, it's the backs that are under-performing. If you want your tighthead prop to make more metres, fly in Tony Buckley.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Corbisiero is hardly comparable to Jones in his work in the loose though.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

If you want your tighthead prop to make more metres, fly in Tony Buckley.

You say that as if it's an unlikely thing to want a prop to be able to make metres... just about our biggest failure on saturday was in not having enough big carriers to make yards around the field, and props can be crucial ball-carriers.

Whilst I agree you need to pick your strongest scrummager where possible, I really can't agree with this compartmentalising of player roles. It's fine if one of your front row is less active in the loose, but that needs to be made up for somewhere imo: no team can carry an entire front row which doesn't pull its weight - 3 front-rowers who put themselves about and have huge impact in other areas of the game can make a huge difference to a result. Cole, Youngs and Marler, for all their failings, have been known to put in nearly 30 tackles between them - that's impressive, and I think it's disingenuous to pretend that's not also useful to a side - not every blindside or number 8 can be expected to put in 20 tackles per game, for example. If you have 3 adam jones types in your front row, you may beast the scrum but I think it's wrong to pretend you don't lose something elsewhere.

We're focusing here on the scrum (despite it being fairly stable apart from a few scrums) as the chief area of improvement, which I feel is a shamefully northern hemipshere way of thinking. I think that expecting the scrum to be worth 6-9 points per game for us over the opposition limits our game development in other areas - if those penalties don't come, then we need to be able to play an adaptable game to get the points elsewhere. Ultimately, scrum reliance isn't a sustainable approach, because it won't always win you games against the very best opposition. People try to make the direct plea that, if a scrum can win you 3 points per time, why not milk that aspect of the game for all its worth - fair enough, but the scrum is not alone in being directly worth points. Take the simple matter of a line-break/ big gain-line gain - so often in winning yards, if your pack are close for a quick clear-out, penalties are won in this area of the game through opposition offsides or similar offences, and good teams get lots of their points simply by breaking the line, even if they don't score a try.

Lets face it, on saturday the biggest failing was not the scrum. I think it's very important, don't get me wrong - but I feel sometimes Northern hemisphere rugby emphasises it to our detriment.

 

[Johnny Boy]

Can't get my head around all this lambasting of the front row/pack as tbh the backs offered nothing in attack and I think this safety first attitude could cost us the series, its **** or bust on saturday and I think the lads have got to throw caution to the wind on the weekend to come away with a win.

 

[Raskolnikov]

For cementball read Waren Gatland

 

[Haysie]

B'OD has always been pocs captain...

I trust him that he'll come big in the end

2009?

 

[Amiga500]

What Warren Gatland wouldn't give to have Cian Healy available this weekend.

It would change the complexion of the forward battle completely.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Can't get my head around all this lambasting of the front row/pack as tbh the backs offered nothing in attack and I think this safety first attitude could cost us the series, its **** or bust on saturday and I think the lads have got to throw caution to the wind on the weekend to come away with a win.

Its not lambasting.. and part of the reason the backs offered little is that our forwards weren't getting us much over the gain-line, and ball was not as quick as it could have been.... which all brings us back to the question of do you want your front row to offer something besides scrummaging.

 

[dullonien]

Bloody hell you have a short memory!

I seem to remember Ospreys getting absolutely schooled by Leicester all over the park this season. Their scrum which included A Jones, Hibbard, Evans, AWJ, R Jones and Tipuric was taken apart by the Tigers pack which had Cole and Youngs in the front row, but were without our 1st choice loosehead - Marcos Ayerza.

Watch more Ospreys games! - here, let me refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eR1qMXTpE4

For the scrums, go to 14:30, 31:30, 33:30, 37:30, 42:20, 49:30 etc... I can't be bothered to find anymore, but you get the idea.

You're forgetting Ryan Bevington, one of the most mobile props going, but inconsistent at best at scrum time. Cole simply got the better of him. He was the weak link in that Ospreys scrum, nothing to do with Adam, Hibbard, AWJ or Evans.

When they had Paul James on the looshead this happened:

 

[Johnny Boy]

Its not lambasting.. and part of the reason the backs offered little is that our forwards weren't getting us much over the gain-line, and ball was not as quick as it could have been.... which all brings us back to the question of do you want your front row to offer something besides scrummaging.

Of course you want your front row to offer more than just scrummaging but tbh they ain't and we've got to make the best of what we have at our disposal, none of the front row combo's have really set the world alight either in the scrum or in the loose to be fair and I think if Corbs comes back in then the scrum will have a better balance. Adam hasn't really done much other than scrummage but do you risk not playing him and losing that edge he has?

Its the final roll of the dice on saturday and some changes could have a positive effect but could also just as easily have a negative effect, I'm hoping the loss last week as given the lads the necessary enticement to perform whoever is picked.

 

[lynam1104]

Not responding to anyone in particular here but heres my 2 cents on the prop specialization issue.

IMO tighthead is the only position where you're able to get away with being very specialsed other positions need to have a variety of abilities to meet modren pro standerts. Adam Jones is the best tighthead in the world IMO, but he could do more work in the lose hes one of the bigger guys out there but look at Mike Ross they're about the same and while Ross isn't a primary ball carrier for Leinster and Ireland he offers himslef when he can which I feel Jones should do more often. I understand what a scrum takes out of a player I know tightheads who've come out scrums with eyes red form the pressure they come under but maybe a carry of two a game would be nice but still as tighthead is so specialsed he can get away with it.

 

[Peat]

Corbisiero is hardly comparable to Jones in his work in the loose though.

Yeah.

Like, I can't be bothered to go over the other points for the Xth time at the moment, but this comparison is just ridiculous and I want to flag it up big style as maybe it will stop happening. Corbs had the best metre per carry ratio and the 3rd best tackle count in the pack in the 1st test. To use a very crude metric, he's had the highest tackles + carries count of any a tight five forward fives times in his 13 England starts. He is a fine beast in the loose - powerful, quite mobile, works hard. Certainly better than Marler in the loose, swings and roundabouts when it comes to him and Vunipola in the loose.

 

[Maverick1987]

You're forgetting Ryan Bevington, one of the most mobile props going, but inconsistent at best at scrum time. Cole simply got the better of him. He was the weak link in that Ospreys scrum, nothing to do with Adam, Hibbard, AWJ or Evans.

When they had Paul James on the looshead this happened:

This video is from at latest 2011 . You can't dig up 2 year old videos to prove a point . Things change very fast in rugby .

 

[dullonien]

This video is from at latest 2011 . You can't dig up 2 year old videos to prove a point . Things change very fast in rugby .

Yes they do, Paul James left. Ask any Ospreys supporter about Bevington, they're response will probably be, huge talent in the loose, but inconsistent and an average scrummager against the best.

SuperEagle was trying to claim that the performance of the Ospreys against Leicester in 2012 somehow proves that Hibbard, Jones, AWJ and Evans aren't a powerful scrummaging unit, without mentioning Bevington, who conceded most, if not all of the penalties that day. He was hauled off early after it was obvious he could not handle Cole.

Edit. the video I posted wasn't pointless. It demonstrated that with a good scrummaging loosehead, the Ospreys scrum was one of the strongest in Europe.

 

[psychic duck]

Yes they do, Paul James left. Ask any Ospreys supporter about Bevington, they're response will probably be, huge talent in the loose, but inconsistent and an average scrummager against the best.

SuperEagle was trying to claim that the performance of the Ospreys against Leinster in 2012 somehow proves that Hibbard, Jones, AWJ and Evans aren't a powerful scrummaging unit, without mentioning Bevington, who conceded most, if not all of the penalties that day. He was hauled off early after it was obvious he could not handle Cole.

Tbh, in both Leicester matches there were a few penalties, but most were from the scrum flopping, rather than either side seriously dominating and shunting the other side back lots, the Ospreys got a few penalties back too in those games as well. That match at Welford Road was also the one where Adam had to go off prematurely with an injured knee that ruled him out the AI's. That game ended up being an awful game for the Ospreys and Welsh rugby.

 

[Maverick1987]

Yes they do, Paul James left. Ask any Ospreys supporter about Bevington, they're response will probably be, huge talent in the loose, but inconsistent and an average scrummager against the best.

SuperEagle was trying to claim that the performance of the Ospreys against Leinster in 2012 somehow proves that Hibbard, Jones, AWJ and Evans aren't a powerful scrummaging unit, without mentioning Bevington, who conceded most, if not all of the penalties that day. He was hauled off early after it was obvious he could not handle Cole.

Edit. the video I posted wasn't pointless. It demonstrated that with a good scrummaging loosehead, the Ospreys scrum was one of the strongest in Europe.

Yes sorry I see your point now . A slight missunderstanding . I think this was similar to the England Wales game where vunipola and marler were shocking and made the whole front row look like they were struggling even though I didn't think Youngs or cole were really at fault too much . Both LH weren't helped by having launchberry as the lock behind them as he is a bit lightweight . Eg marler seems to do well with kohn behind him for Quins

 

[psychic duck]

Yes sorry I see your point now . A slight missunderstanding . I think this was similar to the England Wales game where vunipola and marler were shocking and made the whole front row look like they were struggling even though I didn't think Youngs or cole were really at fault too much . Both LH weren't helped by having launchberry as the lock behind them as he is a bit lightweight . Eg marler seems to do well with kohn behind him for Quins

It wasn't at all similar to that. England vs Wales was one way traffic, something like 8 or 9-1 penalties at the end. The Leicester vs Ospreys game was something like 5-3. As I said before Ospreys won a few penalties in that game as well. Flop penalties rather than dominating penalties though.

http://youtu.be/-eR1qMXTpE4?t=17m24s
http://youtu.be/-eR1qMXTpE4?t=1h7m12s
http://youtu.be/-eR1qMXTpE4?t=1h13m38s

But the point is, that match wasn't a great one for the Ospreys (especially with the injury to Adam) but it was nothing like what you are saying. You're making out that the Ospreys were getting destroyed and it was one way traffic.

 

[Maverick1987]

It wasn't at all similar to that. England vs Wales was one way traffic, something like 8 or 9-1 penalties at the end. The Leicester vs Ospreys game was something like 5-3. As I said before Ospreys won a few penalties in that game as well. Flop penalties rather than dominating penalties though.

http://youtu.be/-eR1qMXTpE4?t=17m24s
http://youtu.be/-eR1qMXTpE4?t=1h7m12s
http://youtu.be/-eR1qMXTpE4?t=1h13m38s

But the point is, that match wasn't a great one for the Ospreys (especially with the injury to Adam) but it was nothing like what you are saying. You're making out that the Ospreys were getting destroyed and it was one way traffic.

That's not what I meant. I was likening it to point out that 1 member of the front row were struggling and it was costing the rest of them not the overall performance and the amount of penalties conceded .