Second Test: Australia vs. British and Irish Lions (29/06/13)

[Maxwell]

That game was a great advertisement for rugby league. Lions never looked like getting a try and Wallabies after numerous dropped balls eventually got one. Both teams can play a lot better. I hope the Lions show a bit more adventure in attack in the decider and we might see a decent game. For me the 2nd test was disappointing after a good 1st match.

 

[Zed]

And sorry, but how was it a "fortunate" WC semi appearance might I ask? Wales were the 2nd best team in that tournament in many people's eyes

They lost 3 of the 6 games they played. I certainly wouldn't have called them the 2nd best team in the WC.

 

[Zed]

You can't let BOD off, but slate Davies. Both were as bad as each other, and that was partly down to poor ball. BOD still made two glaring errors at a crucial point in the match which heaped pressure on the Lions. I'd argue Davies was slightly better than BOD, as his errors weren't so calamitous, but that's splitting hairs.

I agree. Both should be dropped for Tuilagi and Roberts (if fit)

 

[j'nuh]

I agree. Both should be dropped for Tuilagi and Roberts (if fit)

I'm very tempted by this suggestion! At the start of the tour, I thought they would be too similar and that BOD would be best to complement one of them. But after the first two matches, I'm starting to think that hitting up the middle with big carriers is the way to put some pace into the Lions game. Roberts to strike on the first few phases, Tuilagi/North to follow up in a wider channel, could be a way to get some go forward. Croft and Tipuric in the same pack would become eminently playable if you went with this strategy too, their link play with the backs to fill in the gaps when Roberts/Tuilagi crashes.

 

[Peat]

Having thought about the matter, a huge amount of problems come down to one thing

We are not winning enough collisions in the forwards.

We are not breaking the line attack, we are not securing quick enough ball at the breakdown, we are not forcing them onto the back foot enough in defence. As such, our attack struggles and Will Genia has too much space. If anything we've gone backwards.

There are four very obvious possible changes I see to the pack here

O'Brien for Lydiate - Obvious why
Faletau for Heaslip - A superior player in the tight
Gray for Parling - Not sure I'd want to do this, but Gray is the bigger man. Worth considering.
Cole for Jones - I'll take flak for this, and there's obvious risks attached, but Adam Jones has managed a grand total of 6 tackles in the tests to Cole's 9, despite obviously having more time on the pitch. Jones can't keep up with play to positively influence it outside of the scrums; Cole might.

I would certainly do the first two (Croft on the bench). The others? Not sure, but might be worth it.

I'd also like to see us run more on the fringe like Genia got the Ozzie forwards doing. Any of our scrum-halves should be able to do it, give the forwards a real run-up at an unsettled defence - Jon Davies off lineout ball and Sexton's breaks were probably our most effective running threats, yeah they're the two weediest guys in the team (close enough), but they've been the only two guys with the chance to go for it.

And speaking of Davies, he needs to be shooed off for one of Tuilagi or Roberts. Not bad, but not good enough, and the other two are stronger men. O'Driscoll gets a pass on my desire for smashmouth players due to being O'Driscoll.

And this is where Evans, the most successful lineout jumper on tour, comes into the reckoning imo.

Define most successful? If its most ball taken, that's usually a better sign of "Most Greedy Lineout Caller". Believe Parling still leads lineouts stolen.

 

[McTallshort]

Worrying times for us Lions fans....

Would agree with Peat on Cole and Jones. Although Jones is the better scrummager he looks very out of shape and has only managed 50 minutes both tests.

Manu and Roberts in the centre together? Why not Davis and BOD were weak on Saturday and its obvious the wallabies want too bash it up the middle so lets put 2 brick walls there and see how they get on.

Backrow....is Warbutons injured then the backrow has to be Lydiate/SOB/Falatau with Croft on the bench. If he is fit move SOB on the bench ahead of Croft. The second row should stay the same but they all as a pack need to sort out this bloody lineout they seem scared everytime they throw in Rowntree needs to start earning his money on this and make the right calls.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tuilagi running off of Roberts' shoulder would certainly put the fear of God into a few defenders, regardless of whether or not they're great tacklers that's going to hurt.

 

[McTallshort]

Warburton is out.....

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Some good points being made all round. Firstly, yes - the distinction between lineout general and chief jumper - illustrated by saturdays game, where I remember Alun Wyn jumping more than Parling, despite not being the 'general' - so if you go and replace Parling with Evans, on paper it seems that could be sensible thing to do, but as Peat says, you may just find it doesn't work like that - remove Parling and you take out a central cog. However, I agree that we need to have another 'big man' in the picture - so my argument would be to stop the 'no specialist lock nonsense' and bring in either of Evans or Gray - can't honestly say I care which one. We need (arguably) one of Parling or Croft, but not both. This is where I would drop Croft, operate an entirely new backrow of 6. Sean O'Brien 7. Tipuric 8. Faletau, and keep Heaslip as bench cover.

Cole is an interesting one - there's no way in hell Gatland would start him so we're talking purely hypothetically. Jones gets his man going backwards more consistently, where Cole seems to have one huge push per game, settling for the slightest advantage (or parity) for most other scrums. Cole is a weak carrier, and we've not seen him have any impact on the breakdown whatsoever. But he can put in a longer shift around the field, and that has its merits. It's easy for me to say as someone who doesn't have to make these calls - but I'd be very tempted to give Cole the start - if and only if Corbisiero is fit to start with him. Cole's scrummaging has been infinitely better when he has played with stronger looseheads who he is more used to playing alongside, and Corbisiero can bring out the best in him. The game will be tight coming into the home straights of the second half - so why not give Adam the last 30 minutes to turn the screw and ENSURE we are winning the scrum contest at the critical moment.

The centres - any comparative discussion of who was worst is beside the point, since its the partnership that didn't work, not them as individual rugby players. As I said before, the jury's out for me on Jon Davies at least until he plays in the preferred position. Brian O'Driscoll will be kept, since he'll likely captain, so the only question is 12.

 

[Sam Owen]

I'd go with Tuilagi and Roberts.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads not a hope of BOD being dropped. I'm expecting him or AWJ will be captain on Saturday

 

[psychic duck]

Tuilagi running off of Roberts' shoulder would certainly put the fear of God into a few defenders, regardless of whether or not they're great tacklers that's going to hurt.

Roberts wouldn't give him the ball though. Especially not playing Cementball.

Because despite his scrummaging prowess he's at least 2 stone overweight for international rugby.

He's 120kg. That's the same weight as Carl Hayman, lighter than Os du Randt and those are two of the best props in pro rugby.

By your logic you basically say that virtually every international prop is too overweight for international rugby.

Adam plays 70-80 minutes regularly these days for Wales as well. The reason he's come off is there is a pretty highly rated tighthead replacement, the same reason Cole came off at 50-60 minutes often for Castro this season, simple really. Your post is a decade out of date.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Roberts wouldn't give him the ball though. Especially not playing Cementball.

True enough, I suppose I'm still dreaming of '09 Roberts, where he'd hit people then offload to BOD in space.

 

[Peat]

Those guys have 3-4 inches on him. Two stone is hyperbole, but I'm struggling to find another prop in international rugby who possesses a higher weight to height ratio.

And it's not about how long you're on the field, but how much you do while on it.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Roberts wouldn't give him the ball though. Especially not playing Cementball.



He's 120kg. That's the same weight as Carl Hayman, lighter than Os du Randt and those are two of the best props in pro rugby.

By your logic you basically say that virtually every international prop is too overweight for international rugby.

Adam plays 70-80 minutes regularly these days for Wales as well. The reason he's come off is there is a pretty highly rated tighthead replacement, the same reason Cole came off at 50-60 minutes often for Castro this season, simple really. Your post is a decade out of date.

Is that why though, Duck?

Adam's been puffing pretty bad come the 50th minute in games. And, in virtually all positions we have highly related replacements, and they still don't often enter the fray until much later.

Props can be 120kg and do a full 80... I think maybe Feicarsinn's point is that, on the evidence of this tour, Adam Jones isn't one of those players

 

[McTallshort]

Lads not a hope of BOD being dropped. I'm expecting him or AWJ will be captain on Saturday

Would be AWJ then hes been outstanding this tour and the most consistent player in the test team.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Would be AWJ then hes been outstanding this tour and the most consistent player in the test team.

Perhaps... But I think AWJ is best when left to his own devices - I.e leave him to be a maniac around the field in peace

 

[munstermuffin]

Would be AWJ then hes been outstanding this tour and the most consistent player in the test team.

Form has nothing to do with it. I'd agree with people who saying BOD being dropped would be fair but he is experienced and a superb talker and I think he will be the captain Saturday as its probably too risky to pick anyone else.

 

[Swansea Osprey]

Just my two cents ! Got to change personnel slightly I think for the third test

1. Cos
2. Youngs
3. Jones
4. AWJ
5. Parling
6. O'Brien
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

Bowe is a much better winger than Cuthbert but in BIG games Cuthbert always scores tries

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Just my two cents ! Got to change personnel slightly I think for the third test

1. Cos
2. Youngs
3. Jones
4. AWJ
5. Parling
6. O'Brien
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

Bowe is a much better winger than Cuthbert but in BIG games Cuthbert always scores tries

Welcome! I think you're pretty close to it there mate, apart from a couple of calls:

Pack - spot on imo.
As you say, Bowe is a better winger, and to be honest that's all that matters - we can't go and pick Cuthbert just because in the past hes scored in big games. Bowe has too, don't forget.
Roberts is questionable, but not indefensible. He's looked unthreatening in his matches to date on tour, and has made mistakes when carrying. Still, we know he can be good and I think you're right - Gatland will go for it. I just pray that Tuilagi makes the bench, at least. Because in terms of his performances on tour (and arguably before) he deserves a starting spot far more than Roberts.
Philips is divisive but again I think you're right to have him back. For me, it's as simple as this: (I think it will be a) predominantly Welsh pack are now used to having that physicality around the pack, and certain players look rather lost when they don't have it. Bring him back, if only to bring out the best in others. Particularly Lydiate, for example.