Scottish independence referendum

[Peat]

I hear what you're saying cmac, but it's a very different scenario here. Trying to compare it just doesn't work that well. There's a lot of people with split identities, or quiet identities, who want to know what the material effects of this will be on their children and children.

I suspect the truth in a lot of cases is that people would rather just be Scottish than Scottish and British, but don't feel terribly bothered about it, and would rather vote for what makes sense for them in terms of comfort level.

 

[profitius]

What dragged Ireland out of the mire was the wonderful ambition and intelligence generated by your schooling system that saw the advantages of using the system for its benefit in terms of employment in Brussels (Irish are by far the biggest proportion of employees against population), investment in roads, infrastructure and other subsidies PLUS the tax benefits that brought the computer industry to Ireland together with major global businesses to the great chagrin of other EU members.

This is applause to the Irish people and its Government and no way by way of criticism of what you have achieved.............BUT someone like Germany, France and the UK has had to pay for this and the benefits to the infrastructure and economies of Ireland, Spain, Italy and the new eastern Bloc countries.

You may not like him but Jeremy Clarkson was right in saying "why should I pay the tolls on the French motorways when I have already paid for them by my taxes and payments to the EU?"!!!!

Ireland is no doubt a winner and they have made the most of it but that does not mean it is the best thing since sliced bread for everyone.....it is, in fact, ruining France by supporting an unsupportable economic model!!!

That's the mythical way of looking at it. In reality the EU wants more and more nations to join so it can have a bigger population of slaves. Economics is like war with countries competing against each other. Its the rat race. The bigger a government gets the more people it has power over.

Yes the EU invested in Ireland but there has also been costs like Ireland's fishing industry opened up to all EU states which could be costing billions per year. I bet you dont hear much about that.

Money always flows to the top so you have wealthy people in a position to become wealthier. Likewise wealthy countries keep sucking up wealth. Germany for example exports 3 times more products than it imports. The Germans ate nationalistic shoppers and buy German goods. Someone has to be buying all their exports and its mainly all the EU countries. The Germans might then give a small percentage back as an EU subsidy to help other countries keep going while those countries spend their money on German products. Just the other day in the news was German exports have reached an all time high. So once again a powerful country due to population size has used its position to suck the life out of other countries. That's how the economic system is set up. It should be about balance but is not.

For another example look at the wealthy soccer clubs in Europe. They're getting richer and richer and fewer others are able to compete. The trend will continue!

Most of Europe is struggling. We know about the southern countries and Ireland but Sweden is in a very bad state and no doubt others are too. The USA is in critical condition and the UK and France not much better off. The rat race is getting harder and harder. And why is this? Well its because essentially all the wealth has flowed into the hands of a small percentage of people. Wealth doesn't just disappear.

So where does this leave Scotland. The Norway model is the way to go. Vote for independance and stay out of the EU

 

[William18]

I know that but what I was trying to say is if a nation as a whole wanted independence economics wouldn't matter. If you look at Ireland when we won our independence we were rewarded with no economic improvement for 30 or so years, albeit mainly due to church state that was formed, it was about identity, pride and disassociating ourselves with the empire that had taken our country hundreds of years previously. It all sounds abut poetic I know but I feel as if the Catalonians want for independence is more about identity than the Scots.

But Scotland already has their own identity. Scotland has international sporting teams and a distinct culture from the rest of the UK. Catalonia has had its identity suppressed by the central government but Scottish identity has been encouraged. Scotland is already a country; it just isn't an independent country. "No" voters are proud to be Scottish but many of them are also proud to be British.

With Ireland things are a bit different. The Scottish however chose to join England in an act of Union. It's not like the English conquered Scotland and raped its women. Scotland could have chosen at any point in the last 100 years to be independent. They just haven't wanted to until this point.

That's the mythical way of looking at it. In reality the EU wants more and more nations to join so it can have a bigger population of slaves. Economics is like war with countries competing against each other. Its the rat race. The bigger a government gets the more people it has power over.

Yes the EU invested in Ireland but there has also been costs like Ireland's fishing industry opened up to all EU states which could be costing billions per year. I bet you dont hear much about that.

Money always flows to the top so you have wealthy people in a position to become wealthier. Likewise wealthy countries keep sucking up wealth. Germany for example exports 3 times more products than it imports. The Germans ate nationalistic shoppers and buy German goods. Someone has to be buying all their exports and its mainly all the EU countries. The Germans might then give a small percentage back as an EU subsidy to help other countries keep going while those countries spend their money on German products. Just the other day in the news was German exports have reached an all time high. So once again a powerful country due to population size has used its position to suck the life out of other countries. That's how the economic system is set up. It should be about balance but is not.

For another example look at the wealthy soccer clubs in Europe. They're getting richer and richer and fewer others are able to compete. The trend will continue!

Most of Europe is struggling. We know about the southern countries and Ireland but Sweden is in a very bad state and no doubt others are too. The USA is in critical condition and the UK and France not much better off. The rat race is getting harder and harder. And why is this? Well its because essentially all the wealth has flowed into the hands of a small percentage of people. Wealth doesn't just disappear.

So where does this leave Scotland. The Norway model is the way to go. Vote for independance and stay out of the EU

I'm surprised to see such a strong critique of the EU from the left. Is this opinion that the EU promotes inequality common?

 

[Tony Manx]

I know that but what I was trying to say is if a nation as a whole wanted independence economics wouldn't matter. If you look at Ireland when we won our independence we were rewarded with no economic improvement for 30 or so years, albeit mainly due to church state that was formed, it was about identity, pride and disassociating ourselves with the empire that had taken our country hundreds of years previously. It all sounds abut poetic I know but I feel as if the Catalonians want for independence is more about identity than the Scots.

I can understand the Irish wanting to be rid of their oppressor/conqueror but the Scots actually took over England when James VI of Scotland became James 1 of England on 24th March 1603 so it should be the other way around!!!!

 

[Conal]

I can understand the Irish wanting to be rid of their oppressor/conqueror but the Scots actually took over England when James VI of Scotland became James 1 of England on 24th March 1603 so it should be the other way around!!!!

its a lot more complicated
the Jacobites the William of orange religious reform highland clearances etc

and then maggie oh maggie t

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The Jacobites were not fighting for Scottish independence or anything close, they were fighting so Charles could take the throne. There were a huge number of Scots that fought against the Jacobites. With regards to religious reform, the Scots took to Protestantism far better than the English did, maybe the whole making the churches grey and dull appealed more to the Scots?

As for Maggie, go to Manchester, Liverpool, Brimingham etc and see just how much English support for Maggie there is. It's dishonest to say Maggie was hoisted on them by the English when huge swathes of England despised her too.

Scotland joined England when their exploits in the new world went ***s up and we bailed them out and took on their debt. Now Scots largely caused a second crisis and wish to leave, but again expect England to foot the bill.

 

[McTallshort]

The Jacobites were not fighting for Scottish independence or anything close, they were fighting so Charles could take the throne. There were a huge number of Scots that fought against the Jacobites. With regards to religious reform, the Scots took to Protestantism far better than the English did, maybe the whole making the churches grey and dull appealed more to the Scots?

As for Maggie, go to Manchester, Liverpool, Brimingham etc and see just how much English support for Maggie there is. It's dishonest to say Maggie was hoisted on them by the English when huge swathes of England despised her too.

Scotland joined England when their exploits in the new world went ***s up and we bailed them out and took on their debt. Now Scots largely caused a second crisis and wish to leave, but again expect England to foot the bill.

Amen brother!

 

[Jaguares]

This is the fkg thread. C'mon Scotlaaaaaand!

Wallace! Wallace! Wallace! Wallace!

 

[profitius]

I'm surprised to see such a strong critique of the EU from the left. Is this opinion that the EU promotes inequality common?

I wouldn't say I'm left or right. I like to think I've balanced views.

Most people don't have an opinion because they're bamboozled by everything. And this isn't by accident either. The EU has made things very difficult to understand when they do anything especially when it comes to gaining more power. The harder something is to understand the more difficult it is to explain to people or for people to grasp.

Most of the new laws in the EU come about due to things like foundations ( which are sponsored by corporations, billionaires and different political groups like communists etc) suggesting to the EU to change laws. The politicians are just their to be seen and they get extremely well paid so why complain. Only Nigel Farage and one or two others are prepared to call their bluff. Most politicians represent those in power anyway, not the sheeple who voted them in.

So its all a big corrupt corporate machine. The rich get richer while the ordinary man gets poorer. This has been ongoing. Look at all the millions of new millionaires and billionaires popping up. Their wealth had to come from somewhere and that somewhere is usually a wealth transfer between the poor to the rich.

And all this corruption is made so much easier by having the EU there instead of 20+ separate countries. It just allows the wealth flow from the poor to the rich to happen much faster and therefore create more millionaires and billionaires. Thats why decentralisation of power is a must for a fairer world. It would also mean less or no wars because you wouldn't have super powers like the USA butting in everywhere and making fortunes from weapon sales (to all sides).

 

[Thingimubob]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/12/opinion/wheeler-scotland-referendum/

Ha this got a laugh out of me :lol:

Anyone see the bit in the video where they show a possible new UK flag if there is a Yes vote?



Can't see it though, us lot have never been all that happy about the lack of Welsh representation on the Union Jack, so imagine the fuss if they leave us out of a new revised version.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The EU has clamped down on anti-competition practices far better than any individual state government to my knowledge. I don't think the EU in its present form works well but I can't see how it can be called some corporate lobby. The only thing the EU really should change is the way so much money goes towards subsidising poor agricultural practices. Just let the farmers adapt or (metaphorically) die. At the time the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) was implemented, it was basically a tool that allowed France to suck up huge sums of EU funding. Britain, who produced similar levels of agricultural produce but in a much smaller landspace, received a tiny portion of the funding yet had to pay more in. This pro-French policy of subsidising crap French farming practices led to the CAP. It should be scrapped as it was wrong then and is still wrong now.

Also the reason why Wales isn't represented is because when the original Union flag was created, Wales was not a seperate country. Wales was legally part of England.

 

[Thingimubob]

Also the reason why Wales isn't represented is because when the original Union flag was created, Wales was not a seperate country. Wales was legally part of England.

Very true, still doesn't mean we have to like it we are these days so be a bit daft to leave us out.

Doubt it'll come to pass anyway.

Checked the bookies odds earlier, Paddy Power have it at 1/4 on No and 11/4 on Yes.

 

[nickdnz]

I wouldn't say I'm left or right. I like to think I've balanced views.

Most people don't have an opinion because they're bamboozled by everything. And this isn't by accident either. The EU has made things very difficult to understand when they do anything especially when it comes to gaining more power. The harder something is to understand the more difficult it is to explain to people or for people to grasp.

Most of the new laws in the EU come about due to things like foundations ( which are sponsored by corporations, billionaires and different political groups like communists etc) suggesting to the EU to change laws. The politicians are just their to be seen and they get extremely well paid so why complain. Only Nigel Farage and one or two others are prepared to call their bluff. Most politicians represent those in power anyway, not the sheeple who voted them in.

So its all a big corrupt corporate machine. The rich get richer while the ordinary man gets poorer. This has been ongoing. Look at all the millions of new millionaires and billionaires popping up. Their wealth had to come from somewhere and that somewhere is usually a wealth transfer between the poor to the rich.

And all this corruption is made so much easier by having the EU there instead of 20+ separate countries. It just allows the wealth flow from the poor to the rich to happen much faster and therefore create more millionaires and billionaires. Thats why decentralisation of power is a must for a fairer world. It would also mean less or no wars because you wouldn't have super powers like the USA butting in everywhere and making fortunes from weapon sales (to all sides).

Don't forget the illuminati, they're the ones behind it all.

 

[St George]

100% agree with the Welsh being represented on any new flag. And ive always been an advocate for recognition of Wales as a partner at cricket. Its the EWCB not just ECB.

Thatcher keeps being brought up as one of the reasons for ScotsNats not wanting to be ruled by Westminster. But that was 27yrs ago. You would assume the elder Scots would represent this case, but this doesnt appear to be so. And as for the lack of representation in Westminster.... there was plenty in Blair & Browns goverments for 13yrs:
Blair
Brown
Cook
Robertson
Darling
Lord Irvine
David Clark
Dewar
Strang
Reid
Liddell
McCartney
Falconer
Alexander
Commonly known as the Scots Mafia.

IMO, and the figures agree, the rise of Scotsnats took off after mel gibsons distorted take on braveheart. So its quite amusing that all this mess is a result of a film suggesting the hero of Scotland was a paedophile. Pmsl.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

There is even a statue of "William Wallace" in Scotland, guess who it looks like? It's like how there was a surge in anti-British feeling in the US after The Patriot (another Gibson historical wonder) or anti-British attitude in Australia after Gallipoli. Basically national hatred of Brits/English rises after films are produced that portray us as completely evil.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/12/opinion/wheeler-scotland-referendum/

Ha this got a laugh out of me :lol:

Anyone see the bit in the video where they show a possible new UK flag if there is a Yes vote?

View attachment 3276

Can't see it though, us lot have never been all that happy about the lack of Welsh representation on the Union Jack, so imagine the fuss if they leave us out of a new revised version.

Change the UJ's navy to green. It'd be a horrendously ugly flag though. Mind you not any uglier than our current rag.

There is even a statue of "William Wallace" in Scotland, guess who it looks like? It's like how there was a surge in anti-British feeling in the US after The Patriot (another Gibson historical wonder) or anti-British attitude in Australia after Gallipoli. Basically national hatred of Brits/English rises after films are produced that portray us as completely evil.

If the shoe fits.. ;P

 

[nickdnz]

There is even a statue of "William Wallace" in Scotland, guess who it looks like? It's like how there was a surge in anti-British feeling in the US after The Patriot (another Gibson historical wonder) or anti-British attitude in Australia after Gallipoli. Basically national hatred of Brits/English rises after films are produced that portray us as completely evil.

Well, I think the many negative effects of colonialism has something to do with it. India didn't fight for independence because the film Gandhi came out...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It'd be a horrendously ugly flag though.

How dare you.

After we hang, draw and quarter Salmond for treason, you're next.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

How dare you.

After we hang, draw and quarter Salmond for treason, you're next.

LOL, you don't have to be Li Edelkoort to know red and green don't work well together (sorry, Italy).

But seriously. Imagine losing the blue from the Union Jack (one of my favorite flags).. death of an icon that.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well, I think the many negative effects of colonialism has something to do with it. India didn't fight for independence because the film Gandhi came out...

Except Australia, Scotland and the US can hardly use that as an excuse because the people that start disliking Britain are descendents of those who were the actual colonists. I mean the Americans went rampaging across the continent fighting the natives more than us Brits did, Australians went rampaging across the continent killing the natives and the Scots went rampaging across the country moaning about the fact that their king took over our country and how they were in no way involved with the British empire. On the whole not a group of people who have a case to get angry due to imperialism.