Scottish independence referendum

[Ragey Erasmus]

I was responding to your generalization that all English hatred seems to stem from Hollywood. If you want me to find instances of the English acting self-interested at the expense of their commonwealth partners throughout history, it's not difficult to find. Regardless, I have already stated that I can see no advantage in Scotland going independent..

It doesn't but it's also no coincidence that Anti-English feeling skyrocketted after Braveheart, Gallipoli and The Patriot from Scots, Aussies and Americans respectively. Each one grossly distorts the truth yet portrays itself as historically accurate. People watching them walk away convinced their countries were little rays of sunshine whilst the English were all selfish, evil ********.

From Scotlands particular case, the hatred also stems from a perceived sense of Scotland being abandoned. Considering what I've said before about how Scots get perks that the English don't, it becomes an incredibly flimsy case. So ultimately it boils down to plain old nationalistic hatred that has no basis beyond something that may have happened a few centuries ago. The economic argument boils down to "it's Scotland's oil" and pure greed. That's why quite a few English are fed up with the Scots now and want them to go, in their eyes there is nothing we can do right. You wouldn't stay in a marriage with a wife who constantly complained despite you giving her loads of treats you don't get for yourself and who would insult everything you did so there is no reason for the English and the Scots to stay together. If they are going to be bitter about us English, they can do it from the other side of a border.

 

[William18]

English hatred stems from a lack of education regarding history.
An example is one such dislike of the English given by a member of this forum via another forum. He stated his Arab friend hated the English due to the Balfour Declaration on Palestine. He failed to answer when i suggested he educate his friend to the fact that Balfour was a Scot.

The only countries/states who you could say have done more for the world than the British are the USA, Ancient Rome and Ancient Athens. So I think if you put everything into perspective it's hard to criticise the British/English. That's not to say they haven't made huge mistakes though. Look at the problems in Fiji with indentured labour which they are still dealing with today.

 

[William18]

Ummm, I don't think there has been any official proposals. The referendum will likely go through after this upcoming election (which will be decided by the 20th of September).

The silver fern seems to be a popular alternative, while others feel it isn't a good emblem as it may make us seem like pirates...

I am fully confident that whatever will be proposed will be a mess that will alienate a bunch of people, so the most popular option will be to not change anything ever. New Zealand is a country of elderly people who are terrified of things ever changing.

A lot of people don't want the flag to change because they are proud of their British heritage rather than because they are terrified of things changing.

 

[nickdnz]

It doesn't but it's also no coincidence that Anti-English feeling skyrocketted after Braveheart, Gallipoli and The Patriot from Scots, Aussies and Americans respectively. Each one grossly distorts the truth yet portrays itself as historically accurate. People watching them walk away convinced their countries were little rays of sunshine whilst the English were all selfish, evil ********.

From Scotlands particular case, the hatred also stems from a perceived sense of Scotland being abandoned. Considering what I've said before about how Scots get perks that the English don't, it becomes an incredibly flimsy case. So ultimately it boils down to plain old nationalistic hatred that has no basis beyond something that may have happened a few centuries ago. The economic argument boils down to "it's Scotland's oil" and pure greed. That's why quite a few English are fed up with the Scots now and want them to go, in their eyes there is nothing we can do right. You wouldn't stay in a marriage with a wife who constantly complained despite you giving her loads of treats you don't get for yourself and who would insult everything you did so there is no reason for the English and the Scots to stay together. If they are going to be bitter about us English, they can do it from the other side of a border.

I really haven't seen much to back up anti-English sentiment changing due to the movies though. I don't think I've ever seen a "how much do you hate the English" poll as any point of comparison. The Gallipoli campaign is taught in schools and has a holiday dedicated to it. It's a big, unsuccessful bloodbath which a load of ANZACs died due to horrible tactics (and even more French, Indian and English soldiers as well). I think you would be hard pressed to convince me that anti-English sentiment is entirely due to a 1981 Peter Weir film, and less to do with magnitude of the cock-up of the entire campaign.

It could be that the English become far more aware of the negative views that exist about them after watching a historically inaccurate film.

But yeah, I agree with you that I'm not sure why the UK would give further incentives for Scotland to stay.

A lot of people don't want the flag to change because they are proud of their British heritage rather than because they are terrified of things changing.

Right, yeah that's pretty much what I was saying. People are proud of what they achieved in the past, despite it's irrelevancy towards the present and future. That's what I meant, I can tell we're on the same page .

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I really haven't seen much to back up anti-English sentiment changing due to the movies though. I don't think I've ever seen a "how much do you hate the English" poll as any point of comparison. The Gallipoli campaign is taught in schools and has a holiday dedicated to it. It's a big, unsuccessful bloodbath which a load of ANZACs died due to horrible tactics (and even more French, Indian and English soldiers as well). I think you would be hard pressed to convince me that anti-English sentiment is entirely due to a 1981 Peter Weir film, and less to do with magnitude of the cock-up of the entire campaign.

It could be that the English become far more aware of the negative views that exist about them after watching a historically inaccurate film.

But yeah, I agree with you that I'm not sure why the UK would give further incentives for Scotland to stay.



Right, yeah that's pretty much what I was saying. People are proud of what they achieved in the past, despite it's irrelevancy towards the present and future. That's what I meant, I can tell we're on the same page .

The thing about Gallipoli is many are under the impression we simply sent ANZAC soldiers to their deaths without a care in the world. It ignore that large efforts were made to save the operation with many Brits dying in the process. It also has a tendency to ignore incompetence on the part of Aussie officers, instead pinning every failure on the English. Lastly it's treated as if we weren't also send our own men into the grinder on the western front. It's not like military failures were exclusive to Gallipoli nor were ANZAC soldiers the only ones who died in droves. Gallipoli paints it as the Brits sipping tea on the beaches whilst the brave ANZAC get slaughtered. The reality is that the officers were ****ting themselves trying to work out how to save the whole operation and many British soldiers went out to try to help the ANZACs. It was a cockup but as an excuse to hate Britain, it's not a very good one. Maybe Aussies could hate us for dragging them into WW1, despite us being allies. That at least has some sort of consistency. Hating us because a military operation went wrong is just plain stupid. Things go wrong, that's life. If there was an intention to send the ANZAC on suicide missions then maybe it would be justified but there was no intention for the operation to fail.

Ultimately people hate the English because it's considered "acceptable" to. I could hardly go around saying I hated the Germans for what they did in WW2 or Argentina for invading the Falklands yet Scots will happily go around expressing genuine hatred because we killed William Wallace.

 

[St George]

Talk about sweeping statements..

Based on an example i gave an backed up with the many comments i get here from kiwis and aussies who tend to make sweeping statements about the English historically which should be attributed to the British.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What scots voting Yes think of themselves as:

What English people think the scots voting for yes look like:

 

[St George]

.

wow...man I've read some fukking bowshieet in my life, but this is just a special kind of fukking bowshieet. I'm amazed this was posted. Amazed. I'll have to tell ppl about that, I'm that confounded. Amazing post.

I thought you of all people would be used to bull.

:lol::lol::lol:

It must be nice to be so assuredly right on all foreign affair decisions from the British Empire, from it's entire conception until now. I wish I could argue against your point, but it would simply be the rambling of one not properly educated at an English institute.

I gave an example, which genuinely happened, and has repeated itself many times in my experience. If you dont like it.... i really dont give a ****e.

 

[nickdnz]

Ultimately people hate the English because it's considered "acceptable" to. I could hardly go around saying I hated the Germans for what they did in WW2 or Argentina for invading the Falklands yet Scots will happily go around expressing genuine hatred because we killed William Wallace.

On the ANZACs - Well as I mentioned, there were actually far more English and French soldier that died. It's more that the 19th century tactics employed by British officers resulted in so many deaths. I'll note that most people in both Australia and New Zealand look on the campaign with some kind of pride as it's one event where we forged a national identity.

But again I'm not sure who 'hates' the English. A lot of nations prefer to be independent and they base it on not seeing advantages of remaining part of England - noting the disadvantages of remaining with England. Because of the close boundaries of Scotland and England there may be a minority who generally 'hate' the English - but in New Zealand and Australia no one hates the English. In New Zealand you'd probably find just as much declarations of hate in regard to the French - and significantly more so to Australia. Even then it's only ever really a laugh. Occasionally someone will say they wish England never came to New Zealand, but it's certainly not the white majority .

United States portrays anyone of any relative population size, who have ever opposed them in any minor fashion, as a bad guy in film. At least Hollywood made James Bond, all South Africa has going for it is the 'diplomatic immunity' ******* who dies in Lethal Weapon II.

I gave an example, which genuinely happened, and has repeated itself many times in my experience. If you dont like it.... i really dont give a ****e.

Oh?

One example to represent your basis of "Everyone who thinks England has ever done anything wrong is uneducated" - being one forum post you saw when someone is wrong?

Okay. All English people are Gary Glitter. I took a sample size as large as yours - and have extrapolated that all English people wrote the song "I Love You Love Me Love" and then went to South East Asia to molest children.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Based on an example i gave an backed up with the many comments i get here from kiwis and aussies who tend to make sweeping statements about the English historically which should be attributed to the British.

Then you should implicate the rest of Britain rather than absolve all of England. Not that I am trying to say England (with or without the rest of Britain) are alone in 'historical atrocities'. In fact I'd like to know if there is one single nation/people who have clean hands nor am I trying to say people and/or individuals currently have or should have any blame for past collective acts. But I am not interested in getting into pointless arguments. I just thought the part of your statement I highlighted was ludicrous and said so.

EDIT; Stop triple posting!

United States portrays anyone of any relative population size, who have ever opposed them in any minor fashion, as a bad guy in film. At least Hollywood made James Bond, all South Africa has going for it is the 'diplomatic immunity' ******* who dies in Lethal Weapon II.

I've never seen a white South African portrayed as good guy in film (the rare times we feature). Even in video games we were the bad guys in Metal Gear Solid.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The only countries/states who you could say have done more for the world than the British , Ancient Rome.

What have the Romans ever do for us.

 

[St George]

The only countries/states who you could say have done more for the world than the British are the USA, Ancient Rome and Ancient Athens. So I think if you put everything into perspective it's hard to criticise the British/English. That's not to say they haven't made huge mistakes though. Look at the problems in Fiji with indentured labour which they are still dealing with today.

100% William. And i for one never defend the Empire as though it was a saintly right of the British. But it does irk me when only the English are held accountable for the acts of the British. Maybe i didnt explain correctly but education in the form of communication is whats needed and not from some perceived view of superiority which some here seem to suggest i meant.

EDIT; Stop triple posting!




Apologies for triple posting etc but im on a mobile with a fat thumb and beer in hand and am responding to posts as read.

 

[profitius]

Anyway. I have to say, I saw a different way of looking at it this morning, one I've sorta half-thought about - but genuinely, why would the Scots wish to leave a Union where they've had a disproportionately high level of influence for a long time? There's been a Scot high up in the Treasury for almost as long as I remember, we've only recently stopped 13 years of a Scot as Prime Minster. UK embassies have championed Scotch whisky, UK money has helped make Chris Hoy a champion. The system isn't always perfect, but in general, when the Scots provide a champion, they have the whole weight of Britain behind that champion. Why give up that advantage? Have the Scots lost faith in their ability to continue shaping this nation and drawing on the resources of the whole when needed to improve their lot?

A token Scot in power means nothing. 5m people vs 55m means the 5m will have their views drowned out. Most of the wealth in Britain is in the southern part of England. Wales, Scotland and northern England are poor because they don't have enough say to change policies that would suit themselves better. Theres so many people in southern England that they basically get what suits them and become wealthy and then give a few crumbs back to Scotland, Wales and northern England and everyone then thinks the Scots, Welsh and northern English should be grateful.

I've never seen a white South African portrayed as good guy in film (the rare times we feature). Even in video games we were the bad guys in Metal Gear Solid.

It goes against the hollywood narrative. Its always interesting to see who (a certain group) runs hollywood and how and why they took control of the film industry.

 

[Tony Manx]

I have removed this post as it would probably be declared racist!!!!

Come on decent people of Scotland - do not let the rabble win - vote NO!!

 

[Big Ewis]

.



I thought you of all people would be used to bull.

well what can I say, you're wrong again. bowshieet, okay, but of this magnitude ????? Son, you take the cake (and bake a fake mistake in the lake, ya flake)
shieeeeeeeeet

Apologies for triple posting etc but im on a mobile with a fat thumb and beer in hand and am responding to posts as read.

aaahhh...okay...

 

[McTallshort]

Then you should implicate the rest of Britain rather than absolve all of England. Not that I am trying to say England (with or without the rest of Britain) are alone in 'historical atrocities'. In fact I'd like to know if there is one single nation/people who have clean hands nor am I trying to say people and/or individuals currently have or should have any blame for past collective acts. But I am not interested in getting into pointless arguments. I just thought the part of your statement I highlighted was ludicrous and said so.

EDIT; Stop triple posting!



I've never seen a white South African portrayed as good guy in film (the rare times we feature). Even in video games we were the bad guys in Metal Gear Solid.

They took the exploits of a group of South African mercenaries and made it into a film.....where the Saffers were changed for Americans and led by Bruce Willies. But dont take it to heart the yanks do that a lot.

 

[Peat]

Then you should implicate the rest of Britain rather than absolve all of England.

Seems a little bad hat though, doesn't it? Almost like we're trying to weasel out. Kind of petulant. No, we've got broad enough shoulders, historic perception will right itself in time.

But again I'm not sure who 'hates' the English. A lot of nations prefer to be independent and they base it on not seeing advantages of remaining part of England - noting the disadvantages of remaining with England. Because of the close boundaries of Scotland and England there may be a minority who generally 'hate' the English - but in New Zealand and Australia no one hates the English.

I don't think we're terribly popular in Iran. Or Mallorca.

Anyway, one drifts. The most recent survey, carried out in 2003 by Glasgow University, found 38pc of participants expressing Anglophobia and 25pc of English immigrants claiming to have experienced harassment. Yes, minority, but a pretty sizable one. But those numbers are not caused by bloody Hollywood.

 

[LittleGuy]

It doesn't but it's also no coincidence that Anti-English feeling skyrocketted after Braveheart, Gallipoli and The Patriot from Scots, Aussies and Americans respectively. Each one grossly distorts the truth yet portrays itself as historically accurate. People watching them walk away convinced their countries were little rays of sunshine whilst the English were all selfish, evil ********.

From Scotlands particular case, the hatred also stems from a perceived sense of Scotland being abandoned. Considering what I've said before about how Scots get perks that the English don't, it becomes an incredibly flimsy case. So ultimately it boils down to plain old nationalistic hatred that has no basis beyond something that may have happened a few centuries ago. The economic argument boils down to "it's Scotland's oil" and pure greed. That's why quite a few English are fed up with the Scots now and want them to go, in their eyes there is nothing we can do right. You wouldn't stay in a marriage with a wife who constantly complained despite you giving her loads of treats you don't get for yourself and who would insult everything you did so there is no reason for the English and the Scots to stay together. If they are going to be bitter about us English, they can do it from the other side of a border.

Since when did "The Patriot" skyrocket anti-English feeling in America? I'll grant you it was a biased and innacurate piece of crap, but I think most Americans realized that in the theatre or stopped caring the day after they watched the movie. I remember it coming out, I think apathy was the only feeling stirred up as it was a mediocre film at best. It's not like Americans were rushing down to burn the British embassy down. I saw a study the other day where Americans ranked the United Kingdom as their favourite foreign country in the world(though margin of error difference with Canada).

Perhaps a few poorly educated movie fans saw it and now hate England, but I bet they can't even find it on a map so not really a big deal.

 

[Draggs]

This isn't a thread on the Patriot, lads.

 

[Thingimubob]

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