Scottish independence referendum

[TheSaffycen]

Now if I am wrong somebody feel free too shout me down..
Scotland want independence because they want too have more control on taxes, laws, policy and things of that nature. But if they are planning on joining the EU then they will still have alot of power and influence coming from Brussells that they can't control either ?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Now if I am wrong somebody feel free too shout me down..
Scotland want independence because they want too have more control on taxes, laws, policy and things of that nature. But if they are planning on joining the EU then they will still have alot of power and influence coming from Brussells that they can't control either ?

That is essentially correct, don't rely on the SNP to be consistent on anything. Ultimately it is about taking a larger chunk of the oil and sticking 2 fingers up at the English. Funny thing is, most people are saying Scotland won't get automatic membership to the EU and if they apply, only 1 nation needs to block them for their entry to fail. Now say Scotland decides they aren't going to take on the debt, the UK can turn around and say we will veto their membership on the basis of unresolved disputes with a member nation. If they do get into the EU, it will make their lack of representation in Westminster look like a joke. They could expect about 13 MEPs which would be 1.7% of the total. Compare that with their MPs where they get about 10% of the total. That's even with the EU habit of massively over-representing smaller nations.

 

[Feicarsinn]

EU law a bit less obtrusive with regards tax, etc.

 

[Da Grappla]

I just don't get the independence desire. One man could want to be independent from authority, but just switching from one master to another...it just doesn't make sense to me.

We have plenty of issues like that, more than France has, over here.

Nations are like farts, everyone thinks their ones don't stink.

Now if I am wrong somebody feel free too shout me down..
Scotland want independence because they want too have more control on taxes, laws, policy and things of that nature. But if they are planning on joining the EU then they will still have alot of power and influence coming from Brussells that they can't control either ?

Well, well...that's what Farage pointed out. I'm thinking alike about that.

 

[Tony Manx]

The Scottish Government have spent millions of pounds of taxpayers money in PR in favour of a yes vote that appeals to the minority of people who have an almost pathological hatred of the Tories and/or England and the rabble have been inflamed!

The fact that the police are gearing up for problems at the voting places is an indication of the way in which Salmond and his cronies, who have put together the weakest possible case, have inflamed the situation.

Salmond has not given any indication as to how he will raise money with declining oil revenues and the loss of huge businesses that are set to move if he wins, he has not explained what currency will be used, he has not explained how they will be admitted to their dream of EU subjogation (strange for independents) when they have clearly said Scotland will not be welcome, he has not explained about passports, BBC, Royal Mail, Defence, NHS, pensions or any other major issues.

The division of the Union will be horrific for many reasons, not least of which as it will mean that the Tories will not have to worry about re-election. The damage it could do to the fragile financial recovery is immense both for Scotland and the remnants of the Union.

But what do Salmond and Sturgeon care about that...............their population should and get over Bannockburn!!

PS I would always want a Tory government in the UK, not that it affects me, but they need to walk in fear of not being re-elected!!

 

[Thingimubob]

The Scottish Government have spent millions of pounds of taxpayers money in PR in favour of a yes vote that appeals to the minority of people who have an almost pathological hatred of the Tories and/or England and the rabble have been inflamed!

The fact that the police are gearing up for problems at the voting places is an indication of the way in which Salmond and his cronies, who have put together the weakest possible case, have inflamed the situation.

Salmond has not given any indication as to how he will raise money with declining oil revenues and the loss of huge businesses that are set to move if he wins, he has not explained what currency will be used, he has not explained how they will be admitted to their dream of EU subjogation (strange for independents) when they have clearly said Scotland will not be welcome, he has not explained about passports, BBC, Royal Mail, Defence, NHS, pensions or any other major issues.

The division of the Union will be horrific for many reasons, not least of which as it will mean that the Tories will not have to worry about re-election. The damage it could do to the fragile financial recovery is immense both for Scotland and the remnants of the Union.

But what do Salmond and Sturgeon care about that...............their population should and get over Bannockburn!!

PS I would always want a Tory government in the UK, not that it affects me, but they need to walk in fear of not being re-elected!!

If Scotland do go, I bloody hope we get devolved enough not to worry about the Tory majority in England mucking about privatising everything...

 

[Tony Manx]

If Scotland do go, I bloody hope we get devolved enough not to worry about the Tory majority in England mucking about privatising everything...

You will then be next if those barstewards Salmond and Sturgeon win........................!!!

 

[Da Grappla]

Scotland has its own parliament which already has a lot of powers. I don't see why Scottish people would want independence. In some places like Catalonia it seems that the government has tried to restrict their culture and their freedom. Some Scottish people wanted a referendum and they got one. They are also allowed to freely express their culture. I don't see why they would go independent unless there is an economic benefit.

Where did you get that impression from?

Scottish parliament powers are a little joke in comparison to the catalan ones...Catalonia has even its own police force and embassies all over the world.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You will then be next if those barstewards Salmond and Sturgeon win........................!!!

Except any economic problems Scotland may face post-independence will be MUCH worse for Wales.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm hoping the Scots get their independence. Mainly out of interest as to what will happen the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland when Britain becomes nothing more than an island. It won't happen though, the polls are 50/50 and more undecided people will panic and vote no than the other way around.

 

[McTallshort]

If Scotland vote yes 2 things will happen;

1. Scotland will end up with a Labour government as the SNP will no longer be relevant.
2. Spain will block any attempt for Scotland to join the EU.

Best case Scotland ends up like Norway, worse case has to join the Union again and spend 300 years moaning its not their fault. Either way I think they should go for it wish I could vote to leave the Westminster madhouse.

 

[Feicarsinn]

If Scotland vote yes 2 things will happen;

1. Scotland will end up with a Labour government as the SNP will no longer be relevant.
2. Spain will block any attempt for Scotland to join the EU.

Best case Scotland ends up like Norway, worse case has to join the Union again and spend 300 years moaning its not their fault. Either way I think they should go for it wish I could vote to leave the Westminster madhouse.

That's worst case scenario. I doubt Spain would block Scotland joining the EU, I don't think they'd be willing to take the big hit in terms of international standing that it'd bring.

 

[Peat]

Where did you get that impression from?

Scottish parliament powers are a little joke in comparison to the catalan ones...Catalonia has even its own police force and embassies all over the world.

Wasn't that the case during the Franco era?



p.s. No country is truly independent these days; the web of international laws and obligations subsumes us all. The SNP position is that Scottish independence frees Scotland from one of those strands and allows them to pick the position in that web that suits them best (i.e. definitely staying in the EU when there is a growing exit movement in England). Talk of swapping a master in Westminster for a master in Brussels is, imo, a strawman.

edit:

That's worst case scenario. I doubt Spain would block Scotland joining the EU, I don't think they'd be willing to take the big hit in terms of international standing that it'd bring.

What big hit?

 

[McTallshort]

That's worst case scenario. I doubt Spain would block Scotland joining the EU, I don't think they'd be willing to take the big hit in terms of international standing that it'd bring.

Wrong! Spain currently has several regions pushing for independence. If Scotland vote yes and are allowed to join the EU then Catalan and Basque will be pushing hard to leave Spain and thats not something the government in Madrid will allow to happen.

 

[Tony Manx]

Wrong! Spain currently has several regions pushing for independence. If Scotland vote yes and are allowed to join the EU then Catalan and Basque will be pushing hard to leave Spain and thats not something the government in Madrid will allow to happen.

Add to that the Galicians and perhaps even the Cantabrians!!

 

[Feicarsinn]

Wrong! Spain currently has several regions pushing for independence. If Scotland vote yes and are allowed to join the EU then Catalan and Basque will be pushing hard to leave Spain and thats not something the government in Madrid will allow to happen.

I'm aware of the Spanish situation. But just because Scotland goes independant doesn't mean they're in any way bound to do anything with the Basques and Catalans.


Also, that's not really how the EU works. All 28 member states would have to vote unanimously to exclue Scotland from the EU as they're already part of a member state. However, all countries must also unanimously agree to adopt an amendment for Scottish representation within the European parliament and other institutions. While that could leave Scotland in limbo for a bit, Spain nor any other nation can veto Scotland's membership in the EU by themselves.

Personally I think t's a pretty cheap scare tactic that the no side has been happy to put out. While it's not surprising that the no campaign has been conducted in a very negative manner (no=negative after all) I think they've done themselves a disservice. By treating the Scottish nationalists like petulant children I think they've only served to further alienate larger portions of the Scottish community.

 

[McTallshort]

France blocked Britain from joining what was the EU for decades while under De Galle. If Spain dont want Scotland in they will find a way. Personally Im not a great believer in the EU and think Scotland best bet is to follow the example of Norway not say Ireland or Portugal.

 

[Tony Manx]

Also, that's not really how the EU works. All 28 member states would have to vote unanimously to exclue Scotland from the EU as they're already part of a member state. However, all countries must also unanimously agree to adopt an amendment for Scottish representation within the European parliament and other institutions. While that could leave Scotland in limbo for a bit, Spain nor any other nation can veto Scotland's membership in the EU by themselves..

Not according to my information.....Scotland would become an newly independent state and would have to apply for membership just as any other country and the views of that twit Barrosso were on the record as saying that they would be not be looked at sympathetically...but will bow to your superior knowledge?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ependence-eu-negotiations-under-way-1-3541269

Classic Salmond bullsh*t..............has he asked Darling or Brown, why would the EU care, even if his view on oil, fish stocks etc, are correct which they are not!!! Yet more propaganda and lies!!!

 

[Feicarsinn]

France blocked Britain from joining what was the EU for decades while under De Galle. If Spain dont want Scotland in they will find a way. Personally Im not a great believer in the EU and think Scotland best bet is to follow the example of Norway not say Ireland or Portugal.

A few decades ago. It was still the EC then. A lot has changed in terms of EU law in that time.

Compare Ireland before and after membership to the EU. Europe pretty much dragged us out of the third world. Great organization altogether.

 

[Peat]

I'm aware of the Spanish situation. But just because Scotland goes independant doesn't mean they're in any way bound to do anything with the Basques and Catalans.


Also, that's not really how the EU works. All 28 member states would have to vote unanimously to exclue Scotland from the EU as they're already part of a member state. However, all countries must also unanimously agree to adopt an amendment for Scottish representation within the European parliament and other institutions. While that could leave Scotland in limbo for a bit, Spain nor any other nation can veto Scotland's membership in the EU by themselves.

Personally I think t's a pretty cheap scare tactic that the no side has been happy to put out. While it's not surprising that the no campaign has been conducted in a very negative manner (no=negative after all) I think they've done themselves a disservice. By treating the Scottish nationalists like petulant children I think they've only served to further alienate larger portions of the Scottish community.

Barroso, head of the EU executive until October, has previously said that any newly independent state would have to reapply to join the EU.

- http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/16/independent-scotland-extremely-difficult-join-eu - more from the same article

"It will be extremely difficult to get the approval of all the other member states to have a new member coming from one member state," he said.

"We've seen that Spain has been opposing even the recognition of Kosovo, for instance, so it's to some extent a similar case because it's a new country and so I believe it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries getting the agreement of the other [existing member states]."

And another article - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...o-an-independent-Scotlands-EU-membership.html

Both Spain and Belgium would block an independent Scotland's application to join the European Union, a former president of the EU's finance council has predicted.
Ruairi Quinn, an Irish politician, said the secessionist movements in both countries meant it was "highly probable" their parliaments would vote against Scotland joining.

I do not think these quotes support your position. Am I missing something here Feic?

One more for good measure. If EU figures are saying that Scotland will have to re-apply fully and that there is a strong likelihood of them being blocked, why shouldn't we believe them?

Herman Van Rompuy said a newly independent state, breaking away from an existing EU member, would be classed as a "third country" and would have to apply using "the known accession procedures".

- http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...orpedoes-snp-claims-on-eu-membership.22950437


edit: People who believe that following Norway's way as a way of being free of EU interference would be in for quite the shock. They still have to follow a lot of EU laws to stay trading with the EU, just with the added bonus of no vote on them. Plenty out there on the subject.