Scotland v England

[mohamed_ali12]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Mar 14 2010, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ali12 @ Mar 14 2010, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 14 2010, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I was at the game yesterday and I enjoyed the view of the Edinburgh skyline as the Sun set. I enjoyed nothing else. Complete **** of a game.

It's already been said on this topic and several others so I don't really need to say much about the game, considering it's blatantly obvious where and why England are so poor - poor enough to not even look like scoring against a team that lost to Italy.

Wilkinson's floated miss-pass to a hooker/ touch judge, wasting a 4 on 2 overlap, just about sums up England's attacking capability. The only thing surprising about that play was the fact that a badly-thrown ball was going towards Dylan Hartley rather than out of his own hands.

Interesting move to bring on Foden - he certainly looked livelier than Armitage, even if he did get turned over once or twice.

Wishful thinking, hopeless optimism... and here is my team for the opening game of the 2012 6N, with Richard Cockerill in charge and (insert good coaches here) on the staff.

1. Mullan/ Corbisiero
2. Hartley/ Webber
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Gaskell/ Kennedy
6. Croft
7. Saull/ Rees if he ever gets fit again
8. Narraway/ Dowson
9. Youngs/ Care
10. Flood/ Alex Goode/ Cipriani with his head out of his arse.
11. Cato
12. Waldouck/ Turner-Hall/ Allen
13. Tait/ Waldouck
14. Ashton
15. Armitage/ Foden

These players are to be given time to play good rugby and no one who played with Martin Johnson is allowed to replace them if they're ****. The coach is to be given until after the 2015 world cup before its legally possible for him to quit. And Rob Andrew to be shot.[/b]

Would like to see Mallinder/Richards as head coach, with Edwards, Booth and Ashton for next year.

1. Sheridan/Golding
2. Hartley/Mears
3. Cole/Wilson
4. Kennedy/Attwood
5. Lawes
6. Croft/Haskell
7. Rees (if he gets back to his best)
8. ?? there really is no-one good enough. Dowson if anyone, I love Easter as a club player.

9. Youngs/Hodgson
10. Geraghty (best stand off on his day)/ Flood
11. Monye/Banahan/Simpson-Daniel
12. Barkley/Turner-Hall
13. Tait/Tindall
14. Ashton
15. Foden/Goode/Armitage

Now THAT is a team that could perform with a good coach.
[/b][/quote]

Team? That's 27 players! Hardly settled. Also lol at Tindall, by royal appointment.
[/b][/quote]

I'm not quite sure why, but I'm feeling a bit of love for Tindall at the moment. I never have before, but he seems like the only half-decent crashball centre we have in the country right now.

 

[feicarsinn]

But would you really want him in the setup going forward? He's 31 at this stage and his best days are well behind him. What about George Lowe?

 

[mohamed_ali12]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Mar 14 2010, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

But would you really want him in the setup going forward? He's 31 at this stage and his best days are well behind him. What about George Lowe?[/b]

George Lowe is very talented, but hasn't played more than 5 games in Europe. Might get a bit of a shock getting thrown in against the likes of Jamie Roberts et al. There are Hape, Clarke, Allen, Barritt, Waldouck, Allen who can crash, but none of those players would light up the international stage...not that Tindall would be a world-beater either.

Let's just say Tindall is the best of a lousy lot.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ali12 @ Mar 14 2010, 06:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Mar 14 2010, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But would you really want him in the setup going forward? He's 31 at this stage and his best days are well behind him. What about George Lowe?[/b]

George Lowe is very talented, but hasn't played more than 5 games in Europe. Might get a bit of a shock getting thrown in against the likes of Jamie Roberts et al. There are Hape, Clarke, Allen, Barritt, Waldouck, Allen who can crash, but none of those players would light up the international stage...not that Tindall would be a world-beater either.

Let's just say Tindall is the best of a lousy lot.
[/b][/quote]

Pfft. You really think a 2012 team should include a washed up half-member of the 2003 side? Are you Martin Johnson?

Furthermore, no one English at the moment has the tacklebreaking ability of Bastareaud or (on his day) Roberts. Those 2 are specific types of centre designed as wrecking balls who add something extra thanks to good rugby brains/ offloading skills.

If we don't have a man-mountain, then we have to think of something else to soak up tacklers and create space. And what is wrong with guys like Waldouck and Turner-Hall, who are of the more traditional type of 12 that simply straightens the line wonderfully, counteracting a footballing fly-half's natural tendency to run the ball laterally? Then you can have the likes of Tait running nice angles at speed that have been created by a 10-12 pairing who do the old-fashioned job of creating space for others outside them.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Mar 15 2010, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Youngs - As difficult a first cap as can be, he did remarkably well considering he was out of position. Looked like a young Austin Healey. Not a bad thing.[/b]

He took a great catch on an attacking garryowen - was that him? Wise of Johnson to bring him in because he will be an England great. Not sure about the Austin Healy comparison - on so many levels! - but England have plenty of arrogant, talented players who can escape from the strait jacket. Ashton is another. Just stick them on the pitch and watch them run circles around the plonkers.

England did have a chance of the GS, but their defence is shocking for a team of modest attacking ambition. Their scores against 14 man Wales show they know how to stick the knife in - just as well as Ireland - but then they reversed the handle and offered the opposition a slice at the jugular.

Problem is they have too much choice amongst players? Nah, total crap - which leaves me seriously puzzled. England's failure is a failure for the sport.

 

[Fa'atau82]

England are clearly in transition. Johnson is trying to mix some new faces, with familiars and Tim Payne.. which kind of only works if the gameplan uses their talents. The fact is, the familiars are fine, but they aren't up to the job these days. Wilkinson, and no disrespect has his best days behind him, and he looks distinctly average these days.

The main problem areas for me are:

2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 12.

Hartley seems a decent enough hooker, but boy does he have some discipline issues. Petulant. He will mature into the role though.. as you can can clearly see he wants the ball, and works damn hard.. he just loses his rag too much for test level.

Haskell isn't doing much these days, looks very poor. I can't think of anything he has done this 6N other than cause a fuss over at Stade. Worsley is a good defender, but is just about useful enough to close out a game. Fair do's, but not a starter.

Easter is ok, but isn't a Harinodoquy, Parisse, Heaslip or any of the Scotland backrow. We need a big ball carrier who steps up to the plate takes on the role more. Easter is a good solid option off the bench, but doesn't really match-up to other rival 8's in terms of dynamicism.

Danny Care is ok. Still a bit of a livewire.. needs to calm down. Looks inventive but needs a more dynamic 10 to match his ability. Youngs will be an asset in the future i think. Needs some confidence building performances.

The 10 jersey is a real problem. Wilkinson seems to get worse with every game, he is now just about average IMHO. Flood looked ok.. certainly gets the spark going, but i don't think he will ever mature into a world class 10, at least not a world beater. The others, Geraghty et all need a run at 10 to see their credentials. A bunch of talented but unproven test match 'what if's'.

For me, inside centre is also a problem. Flutey is adequate. Maybe worth giving Waldouck, Turner-Hall a shout.

I don't really see a problem with the rest of the backline. Armitage can be a good runner, so can Tait, Cueto is a very solid all-rounder, if unspectactular and Foden is our spark at FB. Monye is again ok, but not really much better than Sackey. We need invention and talent as well as bulk and athleticism in my mind.

Just watch the French today. Marc Andreu was an example. They had energy, invention and the ability to play football and open up the backline. Compare that to England, who are toothless, witless and unremarkable and very defensive/negative regarding any ball in hand running.

My starting line-up for France, would definitely include Mullan/Wilson, Cole, Hartley, Kennedy, Lawes, Flood, Ashton and Foden and i'd drop Payne, Haskell, Worsley, Wilkinson, and Armitage.. with Armitage and Wilkinson on the bench, for any situation we need some experience.

Even if England do somehow manage to match the French, chances are we are are finishing behind Ireland. So might as well field some new caps in what will be a hard fixture and a good learning curve for them.

England need to play ball in hand for change, want the ball, do something useful rather than revert to type.

 

[shazbooger]

Who is this Hartley? Looking at a 12 week ban for that at a minimum.

 

[Olyy]

Oof!
He's got previous as well, has Hartley

However, in the game, you could really teall it was unintentional.
Even looking at that picture you can see Ross Ford has him by the back of the head/Hartley is looking down and is just pushing outwards to get away from him.
However, he did swing for him shortly after that


When will they anounce if he's being cited? A quick look on the RFU site/google news hasn't brought anything up

 

[Bullitt]

Oh for f*** sake... Brett Sharman for the rest of the bloody season... <_<

 

[Olyy]

Also, if he does get banned, my moneys on George Chuter being called up...

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Mar 15 2010, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Also, if he does get banned, my moneys on George Chuter being called up...[/b]

If?

Jennings got 12 weeks when there was no evidence at all and the gougeeee (the diver Kennedy) gave evidence to confirm there was no contact with the eye.

I'm still only assuming it was Hartley (it was yeah?) but if it was he has got to be cited.

 

[Bullitt]

If he is cited it'll happen today, the 48 hours since the final whistle are nearly up.

 

[feicarsinn]

Thug!

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Mar 15 2010, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Thug![/b]

Yep

 

[Olyy]

TBF everyone knows Hartleys a bit of a thug, but we all love him for it
He's a thug in the way that, if theres a scrap, he wont shy away (and he's calmed down alot in the past year or two)
Not a thug in the way that, if theres a player with the ball, he'll try and launch him into outer space with his boot

 

[feicarsinn]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Mar 15 2010, 06:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (feicarsinn @ Mar 15 2010, 06:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thug![/b]

Yep

[/b][/quote]

I have noproblem saying Flannery is a thug. I'd much prefer to have Best starting inan Ireland XV. I justwanted to make sure we were over this Hartley has learned his lesson jazz. He clearly hasn't.

 

[Bullitt]

It is sods law that he's not been trouble for literally years now then that happens. Must be something to do with the England camp that turns players into utter f***tards.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Mar 15 2010, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It is sods law that he's not been trouble for literally years now then that happens. Must be something to do with the England camp that turns players into utter f***tards.[/b]

What, because of the long list of recent England players cited for gouging? Stop trying to defend him, he's been in trouble once, knows full well that gouging is unacceptable and deserves to be out of the game for a very long time.

Apart from anything else, he hasn't done anything to merit his place in the team, despite all the column inches written about his potential. I remember just after Flood missed his first long range effort, we had another penalty and kicked to the corner. I said to the person next to me - great, provided Hartley doesn't f*** up the throw, we could score from this. Surprise surprise, Hartley f***s up the throw and Scotland clear it. Hartley is then taken off.

I don't get why people don't like Mears, he fulfils the 2 main jobs of a hooker very well - hooking the ball in the scrum and throwing it in properly to the lineout. Anything else they do is by the by.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 15 2010, 07:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Mar 15 2010, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is sods law that he's not been trouble for literally years now then that happens. Must be something to do with the England camp that turns players into utter f***tards.[/b]

What, because of the long list of recent England players cited for gouging? Stop trying to defend him, he's been in trouble once, knows full well that gouging is unacceptable and deserves to be out of the game for a very long time.

Apart from anything else, he hasn't done anything to merit his place in the team, despite all the column inches written about his potential. I remember just after Flood missed his first long range effort, we had another penalty and kicked to the corner. I said to the person next to me - great, provided Hartley doesn't f*** up the throw, we could score from this. Surprise surprise, Hartley f***s up the throw and Scotland clear it. Hartley is then taken off.

I don't get why people don't like Mears, he fulfils the 2 main jobs of a hooker very well - hooking the ball in the scrum and throwing it in properly to the lineout. Anything else they do is by the by.
[/b][/quote]

Hear Hear! The only advantage Hartley has over Mears is size. Even though Mears gets around the park just as well as Hartley (without getting in the way of the centres) and throws better he is ignored because of his lack of height.

 

[Bullitt]

Oh f*** me, here we go.

Hartley alone hasn't completely changed the face of England! Bring back Mears we've all completely forgotten he's an undersized f***shite who doesn't bother when there's a breakdown nearby, preferring to pretend his name is Brian O'Driscoll and **** about in the midfield.

And his lineout is actually wonderful. We all remember those flawless set pieces during his 5 year under-performing tenure.

Or the fact he couldn't even outshine George bloody Chuter...