Salary Cap Investigations

[Leinster Fan]

Not defending Sarries here but am curious to hear what other English fans think on this.

Do you guys think the salary cap is potentially too restrictive? In Europe over the last few years the only English team who've been able to compete is the one who's basically ignored it. Given that most clubs seem to have the financial resources to go above the salary gap and then some, raising it shouldn't (in theory) either compromise the competitiveness of the league or risk teams overextending themselves and going bankrupt. Or maybe not, I don't really know or have an opinion either way but am curious to hear what you guys think.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Not defending Sarries here but am curious to hear what other English fans think on this.

Do you guys think the salary cap is potentially too restrictive? In Europe over the last few years the only English team who've been able to compete is the one who's basically ignored it. Given that most clubs seem to have the financial resources to go above the salary gap and then some, raising it shouldn't (in theory) either compromise the competitiveness of the league or risk teams overextending themselves and going bankrupt. Or maybe not, I don't really know or have an opinion either way but am curious to hear what you guys think.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not defending Sarries here but am curious to hear what other English fans think on this.

Do you guys think the salary cap is potentially too restrictive? In Europe over the last few years the only English team who've been able to compete is the one who's basically ignored it. Given that most clubs seem to have the financial resources to go above the salary gap and then some, raising it shouldn't (in theory) either compromise the competitiveness of the league or risk teams overextending themselves and going bankrupt. Or maybe not, I don't really know or have an opinion either way but am curious to hear what you guys think.

Leinster have a lower cap than most English clubs and do just fine. The problem is players in the prem are paid a lot, have little to no loyalty to the country and the clubs haven't really worked out we are in the professional era yet. Sarries have been breaching the salary cap but they have also been churning our the most successful academy products and the most English internationals. Salaries aside, they have a highly professional and successful way of producing talent and they don't simply buy their way to victory. If anything the reason they pay so much is because they produce so many good players who then demand high salaries to stay. Not a justification but I don't like that other sides will say Sarries breached the salary cap therefore everything they did was cheating and there is nothing to learn from them.

Take Bath as an example, our ability to produce players for our main team from the academy is shockingly bad. Nearly all our best players were initially trained up somewhere else. Sarries going down will hurt England not so much because of the direct loss of the team but also losing a highly successful academy. Other clubs need to buck up their ideas and actually start producing their own talent. There is too much emphasis on salaries and not enough on what is happening at grassroots and academy level. I'd be in favour of further rule changes so if a club produces their own players and especially if those players are then good enough for England selection, they should get massive perks when it comes to the salary cap, above what is currently in place. Clubs that are completely useless at training up youngsters and contribute next to nothing to England will then suffer domestically too. We need to use salary caps to force that change in attitude.

 

[Reiser99]

Not defending Sarries here but am curious to hear what other English fans think on this.

Do you guys think the salary cap is potentially too restrictive? In Europe over the last few years the only English team who've been able to compete is the one who's basically ignored it. Given that most clubs seem to have the financial resources to go above the salary gap and then some, raising it shouldn't (in theory) either compromise the competitiveness of the league or risk teams overextending themselves and going bankrupt. Or maybe not, I don't really know or have an opinion either way but am curious to hear what you guys think.

It's difficult because you sides to be able to compete well in both competitions, but not at the expense of the other and it's a hard balance to strike.

There are a few points to consider on the issue. If you look at other systems around the Six Nations then English clubs are kind of in between between France and both Ireland and Wales. French clubs are the big spenders and the Welsh and Irish unions use central contracts to support their best national players. England doesn't use central contracts for the men and is unlikely to. Also Premiership Rugby is a company running a league and so what's in the best interests of the league, isn't always in the best interest of rugby nationally. They want an entertaining league that is competitive. This means that there is a gap between the RFU, the clubs and premiership rugby, each looking out for its own interests first.

I think Rage his highlighted a good point that Sarries' academy has been one of their strengths, same with Leinster. The problem was that Sarries were able to have greater squad depth and compete in both Europe and the Premiership far easier than other English sides. As long as they get top 4 and preferably top 2 they can then put out their strongest side for the playoffs. Problem I see is that lifting the cap wouldn't replicate Sarries success elsewhere. Instead I imagine teams would just import lots of average players and while they can rest players more, the overall quality would drop. Sarries combined a strong academy system with strong imports. Not every club can do that. For me if anything more should be done to promote grass roots rugby and encourage clubs to help develop younger players and strengthen their squads that way with more financial incentives for youth development and support. Yes it's a long term project, but I don't see raising the cap as the answer.

 

[Rinkadink]

*edit*

Deleted. Too tired to make a decent post. Will try again soon.

 

[unrated]

If im understanding this correctly, then Sarries cant be promoted next season if they win the Championship because a team promoted to the premiership must comply with the salary regulations for more than one season.

 

[BrokenWing]

I can't find that anywhere. The only criteria for promotion I can see is that they meet the salary cap at the time of promotion.

 

[Abraxaz]

Well that's the only academy producing decent quality players gone then...

Back to the rest of the premiership approach of hiring in south Africans for every position.

England team is going to suffer as noone has the cash to keep the key partnerships together, I.e. most of the forward pack.

Saracens are dead, might as well liquidated the club.

If I was saracens, I'd bench all the top players for the rest of the season and play academy players. No point risking injuries to top players who will leave at the end of the season and might as well get the team that will play next year some experience.

 

[Which Tyler]

Hmmmm. This strikes me as nonsense. If the penalty for infringement was automatic relegation then fine. But putting a club in position where they cannot escape further sanction due to contract law is just stupid.

A] I'm no expert, but I believe the principal of a suspended sentence is pretty well established.
B] The second sentence here is simple not true, as has been covered extensively in this thread.

Bear in mind, PRL could have applied the 70+ points straight away, but decided not to at Saracen's request, with assurances that they'd be under the cap by January.

This story originally broke in March of 2019. Saracens knew what they had done, and what the proscribed penalties are, they just tried to brazen it out instead of putting their hands up and doing what had to be done. They had 3 months to sort it out before the current season's contracts even started.
Once the public announcement was made at the begining of November (and Saracens absolutely knew before it was made public - everyone else knew that something was going on whilst Sarries knew the details of what they'd done, and the details of what PRL regulations say the punishment has to be, whilst being present in the meetings that determine these things) then there was still time under contract law and PRL regulations to get back below the cap for the season. Again though, they chose to brazen it out, and play chicken with PRL whilst doing their utmost to annoy PRL and make them ever less likely to do them any favours.

Also despite much gnashing of teeth I simply don't believe (yeah I know) they are the only offenders. There's some pretty persuasive prima facie evidence that others have been skating on thin ice. Punishing one but not others would sit particularly badly with me.

Name one - this side of the 2015 amnesty.
Once you've done that, put a their squad list up, next to Saracen's.
Sort them out by perceived value groupings (something like: World Class, Lions, Established Internationals, Fringe Internationals, Solid Club ro.s, Newbies/Depth)

 

[bushytop]

Don't know if it's been mentioned on here but apparently RugbyPass have run a story suggesting that Sarries 'could' join the Pro 14. Sounds a bit pie in the sky but there are definitely benefits to both parties, so who knows.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Better competition in the championship tbh


Also, it'd literally never happen - RFU, PRL, CVC all would put a stop to it even if Saracens did want to (and why would they?)

 

[Every Time Ref]

Don't know if it's been mentioned on here but apparently RugbyPass have run a story suggesting that Sarries 'could' join the Pro 14. Sounds a bit pie in the sky but there are definitely benefits to both parties, so who knows.

I imagine they'd still lose their England internationals though? Can't see the RFU making an exception, they've historically been very inflexible on their policy on playing abroad.

Also, it'd literally never happen - RFU, PRL, CVC all would put a stop to it even if Saracens did want to (and why would they?)

Do any of them have the power to stop them?

 

[bushytop]

Better competition in the championship tbh


Also, it'd literally never happen - RFU, PRL, CVC all would put a stop to it even if Saracens did want to (and why would they?)

Like I said I don't think it's all that realistic.

I'll take the 'better competition' part as bantz, in which case "lol".

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do any of them have the power to stop them?

Maybe not directly but they'd lose all their England players/England hopefuls,
There's gotta be some sort of stipulation in the PRL rules about leaving the league seeing as Sarries are one of the 13 founder(?) clubs
The CVC investment money presumably has caveats as well - though they're involved with the Celts now as well aren't they?

 

[bushytop]

I imagine they'd still lose their England internationals though? Can't see the RFU making an exception, they've historically been very inflexible on their policy on playing abroad.

Yeah, I dunno... i imagine if it were to eventually happen, it would only be if Saracens and it's players would get assurances that it wouldn't effect their England chances. Lot of if's there...

 

[Every Time Ref]

Maybe not directly but they'd lose all their England players/England hopefuls,
There's gotta be some sort of stipulation in the PRL rules about leaving the league seeing as Sarries are one of the 13 founder(?) clubs
The CVC investment money presumably has caveats as well - though they're involved with the Celts now as well aren't they?

Yes fair point, I have no understanding of his any if it is structured financially but it does seem likely clubs are tied in financially.

Regarding England players - is it possible the players won't have a choice? If there's nothing specific in their contracts, then maybe there's nothing in employment law to stop Sarries saying "we're playing in Pro14 now, so that's what you have to do"

 

[higgik]

I imagine they'd still lose their England internationals though? Can't see the RFU making an exception, they've historically been very inflexible on their policy on playing abroad.
The RFU could stop it, as Sarries are members, although CVC might have different ideas and be pushing for a British and Irish League anyway.

Do any of them have the power to stop them?

 

[Which Tyler]

Do any of them have the power to stop them?

Unless they move away from London, then the RFU can. In the same way they could have stopped the potential moves of London Scottish and London Welsh when they were mooting the idea.
My understanding is that it would need permission from the RFU, SRU, WRU, IRFU, SARU and FIR.
My expectation for RugbyPass was that they saw the idea mooted on the Saracen's fan forum, and ran with that as being an official suggestion.

 

[Which Tyler]

Name one - this side of the 2015 amnesty.
Once you've done that, put a their squad list up, next to Saracen's.
Sort them out by perceived value groupings (something like: World Class, Lions, Established Internationals, Fringe Internationals, Solid Club pro.s, Newbies/Depth)

I've been bored, whilst the wife has been watching Big Bang Theory - so I've kinda done it for you.

"World Class" (players who IMO would be in the conversation for the World rubgy squad in the Rugby Galactic Cup 2020)
1 Bath
0 Bristol
1 Exeter
0 Gloucester
1 Harlequins
2 Leicester
1 L Irish
1 Northampton
1 Sale
5 Saracens
0 Wasps
0 Worcester
0.78 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Lions Class" (Lions, and those from non-Lions countries that IMO would have gone on an equivolent tour). Excludes all included above.
4 Bath
2 Bristol
2 Exeter
1 Gloucester
1 Harlequins
4 Leicester
4 L Irish
3 Northampton
1 Sale
6 Saracens
1 Wasps
1 Worcester
2.11 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Estabished Internationals" (12+ caps). Excludes all included above.
4 Bath
8 Bristol
9 Exeter
11 Gloucester
11 Harlequins
5 Leicester
8 L Irish
3 Northampton
9 Sale
6 Saracens
6 Wasps
2 Worcester
7.33 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Fringe Internationals" (1-11 caps). Excludes all included above.
8 Bath
4 Bristol
9 Exeter
8 Gloucester
8 Harlequins
10 Leicester
6 L Irish
9 Northampton
8 Sale
8 Saracens
9 Wasps
7 Worcester
8.11 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

Total number of capped players/ total number of players (combined number of caps in brackets).
17/49 Bath (539 caps)
14/47 Bristol (260 caps)
21/51 Exeter (419 caps)
20/40 Gloucester (187 caps)
21/45 Harlequins (653 caps)
21/48 Leicester (602 caps)
19/46 L Irish (518 caps)
16/47 Northampton (464 caps)
19/34 Sale (298 caps)
25/41 Saracens (662 caps)
16/44 Wasps (214 caps)
10/45 Worcester (130 caps)
18.33/45 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap (404 caps)

All cap numbers taken the player's wiki page


Saracens have players in each of the first 2 groups as other culbs have in the 2 groups of combined. They don't make space for that, by having particularly fewer in the other groups.
NB. Saracens could name a full match-day squad of capped players, and then have other capped players bringing on the water bottles - EVERYONE else runs out of caps before completing the bench, 2 clubs fall short of naming a starting XV.
I would appreciate it if @Yoshimitsu could point to which club he thinks stands out from the crowd as likely over-spenders.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I really see no benefit to Sarries joining the Pro 14.

But I would love it.
Would mean we could ring fence the league with 12 teams.