Salary Cap Investigations

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm not sure if this would be popular as it would effectively be punishing players (who I imagine want to play) for mismanagement at board level. Loaning the players out might be an option. I'm sure Glasgow would take Maitland for example (their back three needs an upgrade) which would give him game time and potentially cover most of his salary.

100% agree. I'd much rather that Saracens remain over the cap for the rest of the season than see players left jobless because of poor management.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It sounds like they were taking the **** with how much over the cap they were. Relegation in return for years of dominance through cheating sounds very fair.

 

[Scotty]

100% agree. I'd much rather that Saracens remain over the cap for the rest of the season than see players left jobless because of poor management.

I agree, i was just wondering if an option even if it would be a dick move and does anyone actually know what the amount over they are?

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Smart agents need to be putting into contracts that result in gross misconduct like this will result in a breach of contract.

 

[Reiser99]

I was wondering where this "Automatic relegation" thing came from, as I didn't think ti was part of the rules, but apparently Saracens are going to be hit with another 35pt deduction for this season which would put them on -42.

53pts behind 11th - however there's a maximum of 70pts left available for them (14 games) so Tigers aren't out of the woods yet

Apparently the rules say that -35 points is only a starting point and they are able to reduce all earned points to zero.

 

[Reiser99]

It sounds like they were taking the **** with how much over the cap they were. Relegation in return for years of dominance through cheating sounds very fair.

They must have been well over, but it's more to do with the way they did it. Wray set up companies with a few of the players and tried to argue that they were still following the rules. I think they were all England players so were some of their most expensive players. Therefore once it was ruled as breaking the rules I imagine the amount they had been paid in the company was huge and put them well over the cap. Basically if they were successful in their legal defence they were fine, but if Premiership Rugby ruled against them they were screwed because of how much they'd committed to this scheme.

 

[General Melchett]

They must have been well over, but it's more to do with the way they did it. Wray set up companies with a few of the players and tried to argue that they were still following the rules. I think they were all England players so were some of their most expensive players. Therefore once it was ruled as breaking the rules I imagine the amount they had been paid in the company was huge and put them well over the cap. Basically if they were successful in their legal defence they were fine, but if Premiership Rugby ruled against them they were screwed because of how much they'd committed to this scheme.

I'd say a visit from HMRC is inevitable given the publicity and the clear intent to circumvent rules which in itself would get the alarm bells ringing. I hope the players sought professional advice beforehand and didn't rely on Wray's maverick tax planning skills.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2020/jan/17/saracens-salary-cap-scandal-threatens-farce

 

[FLOBALOB]

It does make Sarries participation in the rest of premiership season farcical. Surely if relegation is accepted, their remaining games should be cancelled and all results up to now expunged. Gives players a nice rest to boot.

 

[Scotty]

I did read that if sarries were to win the champions cup they wouldnt qualify next season if they are the championship.

 

[BrokenWing]

does anyone actually know what the amount over they are?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-u...2gl6F50tP0wIj63u7MeEwFwziMSmaA0g9cfbv6XFSODvk

This article says they were twice found to be £650,000 over the cap, and last season thought to be well over £1M over.

 

[duncanb]

I feel Sarries could well fold as a team.
Obviously they committed the crime payed the fine but due to contact law have no way of not being guilty again.
With a smallish fan base and having to conduct what will end up being a fire sale at end of season could well see them going under as Wray has gone and maybe severed ties completely if some reports to be believed.
Some will glory in their demise but maybe time to look at big picture.
Premership rugby bosses have turned a blind eye for over a decade of breaches of cap.
A conveyor belt of talent will be lost.
Virtually none of Premership clubs have cap space available to take on players .
Good coaches and players will become unemployed.
National team will lose as a consequence.
Prem Rugby may learn from this eg.
End of season Independent audit of salary cap.
Any infringement fine removal of trophiesetc
Next season points deduction.
Off season to comply with cap.
Independent Audit at start of season for compliance.
I don't condone at all what Saracens or basically Wray has done however we now see what a total pigs ear Prem Rugby has made of it and see no equitable solution and fear for clubs future.

 

[Which Tyler]

Obviously they committed the crime payed the fine but due to contact law have no way of not being guilty again.

This is the key point - and it is completely untrue.
They had a 100% chance of getting under the cap for the current season had they taken it seriously in November (and an even better chance assuming that they were informed before the public anouncements).

But they chose to play chicken with PRL, and bluster it out with lies; whilst making it imporssible for themselves by doing sweet FA about it for 2 months.

as Wray has gone and maybe severed ties completely if some reports to be believed.

Have you link to these reports - so far, I've only seen speculation made by non-sarries fans; no reports, and complete denial of this from Sarries and Sarries fans.
I don't deny that such reports exist - but I haven't seen them, and would like to, if you, or anyone else, can find a source.

Some will glory in their demise but maybe time to look at big picture.

I'm sure some will - there are arseholes everywhere. Personally, I'm yet to see anyone doing this.

Premership rugby bosses have turned a blind eye for over a decade of breaches of cap.

And then after the 2014-15 fiasco, they were given a final warning and told in no uncertain terms that it wouldn't be tolerated again, whilst other clubs were tarred by unfounded rumour of involvement.
At which point Sarries doubled down and seemingly became worse.

Virtually none of Premership clubs have cap space available to take on players .

This isn't true - no-one's talking about Prem teams taking on the players NOW (apparently it's too late for that), it's for next season - Remember, Prem teams aren't even allowed to start talk with each other's players until 2 weeks ago; and this recent news won't have come as a surprise to ANY PRL member, who will have had full access to the original report, and known since Sarries decided to bluster instead of act that this was likely.

Good coaches and players will become unemployed.
National team will lose as a consequence.

If and if; then probably no more than happens for any club that gets relegated. Add another couple "If"s, and Sarries become unsustainable, and it MAY become worse.

Prem Rugby may learn from this eg.
1. End of season Independent audit of salary cap.
2. Any infringement fine removal of trophiesetc
3. Next season points deduction.
4. Off season to comply with cap.
5. Independent Audit at start of season for compliance.

1. As is already the case
2. I don't mind this, but it doesn't solve anything
3. As was already the case (suspended sentence) - but Sarries chose to do nothing, and further shoot themselves in the foot, presumably in the hopes that PRL would back down and not apply the suspended sentence
4. Which neuters the punishment
5. Exactly what does this solve? You can't know the season's spending until the season is complete

I don't condone at all what Saracens or basically Wray has done however we now see what a total pigs ear Prem Rugby has made of it and see no equitable solution and fear for clubs future.

I fail to see how PRL have made a pig's ear of it. All they've done is apply the rules that Saracens had a hand in drafting, and then signed their agreement to - including disciplinary action taken 4 years ago, with a line drawn under it at that point, and an understanding that it would not be tolerated again.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It does make Sarries participation in the rest of premiership season farcical. Surely if relegation is accepted, their remaining games should be cancelled and all results up to now expunged. Gives players a nice rest to boot.

Don't agree with this at all - might as well rest a load of teams at the end of the season as top 2 and relegated are often sown up a few weeks early, top 4 and 6 sometimes too

 

[FLOBALOB]

Don't agree with this at all - might as well rest a load of teams at the end of the season as top 2 and relegated are often sown up a few weeks early, top 4 and 6 sometimes too

I was making the point that it would be farcical having the overpaid Sarries team continue to play against teams playing within the rules.
How are the opponents fans going to feel/react?
Nothing to do with resting teams for no reason at all.

 

[Reiser99]

I was making the point that it would be farcical having the overpaid Sarries team continue to play against teams playing within the rules.
How are the opponents fans going to feel/react?
Nothing to do with resting players .

Everyone else has something to play for. Even if Leicester accept they are extremely unlikely to get top 4, they can throw caution to the wind going for top 6 or even focus on the challenge cup knowing they could get champions cup rugby that way without fear of relegation.

The issue is Saracens as it's been confirmed even if they win the Champions cup they would have to be in the Premiership to participate next season. If they are confirmed now as automatically relegated then their season is a bust. Do they play full strength teams and play for pride? Will the players lose their mental edge knowing it's pointless? Do they throw in the towel in the premiership and focus on the Champions cup so that even if they can't play next season, they still end on a high? It they start watering down their teams in the premiership do Premiership Rugby take more action?

It depends on when Premiership Rugby made the decision for automatic relegation. It sounds like they told Sarries to go and get under the cap. Sarries new chairman has come back and said it's impossible due to the rules. They've decided to make an example of them, but they risk damaging the competition by announcing it with less than half the season played. Problem is I'm not sure how else they could have done it. Told Sarries that they will be punished again, but won't be told until the end of the season. That brings its own problems. Taking more points away next season drags the issue out.

For me personally I would have stripped them of their ***les that they won and given them to the runner up in the finals. Maybe a token gesture, but it would hurt their pride. I would then have had the -35 points for this season. Finally I would have automatic relegation for next season if they breach the cap next season in anyway. Also maybe another fine on top. This way they had the whole season to get it under control.
Yes Sarries were well over the cap and could have changed sooner, but it seems to be that decisions were made at the top (mainly Wray, who's probably now sitting in the sun not giving a crap) and the relegation decision affects the whole club and people who had no hand in the decision. Even the players who were part of the companies scheme were probably told it was fine and didn't truly understand the implications (though you may disagree with me here). They were probably just told it would help the club and it was all perfectly legal, just involved a different setup (though I admit, surely if it was legal, why didn't they all do it and just a few high played players. They must have known it was a bit dodgy). The automatic relegation is going to punish far more than those who committed the offence.

Basically I think Premiership Rugby are using a hammer to crack a nut. Most team already seemed to be sweating about their own finances, without the automatic relegation and I think this could backfire on Premiership Rugby and hurt English rugby and the England team.

 

[mdaclarke]

I think the main problem for Saracens is that they have burnt their bridges with the other clubs (who ultimately decide their fate).

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think the main problem for Saracens is that they have burnt their bridges with the other clubs (who ultimately decide their fate).

Which is a ridiculous state of affairs when you think about it.

Clearly Sarries only have themselves to blame.

But Premiership Rugby set the cap and are responsible for the governance of the competition. Knowing there was an issue and still allowing Sarries to get away with sustained and significant breaches is being asleep at the wheel at best. This mess is absolutely partly of their own making.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It's official. Sarries are going down.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's official. Sarries are going down.

Relegation and they're likely to book a trip to Dublin tomorrow... Bad weekend for them!