Salary Cap Investigations

[Amiga500]

Meh, along with 7 other clubs who dance right up to, and occassionally beyond the cap. I still don't think we've smashed it at any point (we now have evidence that we weren't under investigation that year when everyone came and said that it wasn't them, so everyone assumed we were - without actually looking at the quality of our squad) - though I fully expect that we've nudged above it at some points, along with most senior teams.

I'd say dancing up to and stepping half over the line will be viewed quite differently from fragrantly abusing the system. Put like this - if Sorries were anywhere near the cap, then getting rid of one or two players should have brought them back under.

Instead it looks like half the squad has to go - which quite obviously means they were nowhere close to the cap.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd say dancing up to and stepping half over the line will be viewed quite differently from fragrantly abusing the system. Put like this - if Sorries were anywhere near the cap, then getting rid of one or two players should have brought them back under.

Instead it looks like half the squad has to go - which quite obviously means they were nowhere close to the cap.

Exactly - dancing up to the cap is what everyone who can afford it does. Which means everyone but LI and Worcester (and Newcastle, but no longer Bristol).
Stepping over it is what happens due to accounting errors, win bonuses, a cock-up on injury replacements etc - and will happen from time to time - which is why there's a decent allowance before the heavy fines start.

Liam Williams' salary alone is likely more than that allowance, and it certainly doesn't attract a 35 point reduction, or threats of automatic relegation even being considered.

 

[will311293]

Wow


Having trouble making the cap....persumably means players wont take a pay cut and are still under contract. Sarries Firesale everone must go! Sure Chiefs still have some cap left

Can you imagine though if sarries actually got religated and won the champions cup in one season.

Haha, i doubt chiefs have any room left, much as they might try. They were close still when Cordero/Lawday left and with Hogg in this season and Grey next season doubt there's room.

Does raise an interesting question though, if Sarries players do leave, what happens? surely all clubs are waiting on tenderhooks to know, as contracts are being renegotiated and revised. Could mean a lot of players lose their contracts in the future as clubs make room. E.g. Sopoanga at Wasps, contract runs out this year and is on at least 600k, if Farrell/Itoje/Billy or combo of Iseikwe/Skelton/Daly/Spencer/Goode/Mako became available, would we move him on...

It's going to be a really difficult few months for players all around the league.

 

[Which Tyler]

Just a quick addition on the "This will kill the game in England" and "This will kill Saracens"
Plenty of other leagues have survived one of their biggest participants (Juventus, Rangers) being relegated.
The only thing that will do either (both) of those is relegating Sarries AND ringfencing the Prem.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Where is the evidence Bath hasnt been investigated at all?

 

[will311293]

Wow


Having trouble making the cap....persumably means players wont take a pay cut and are still under contract. Sarries Firesale everone must go! Sure Chiefs still have some cap left

Can you imagine though if sarries actually got religated and won the champions cup in one season.

Haha, i doubt chiefs have any room left, much as they might try. They were close still when Cordero/Lawday left and with Hogg in this season and Grey next season doubt there's room.

Does raise an interesting question though, if Sarries players do leave, what happens? surely all clubs are waiting on tenderhooks to know, as contracts are being renegotiated and revised. Could mean a lot of players lose their contracts in the future as clubs make room. E.g. Sopoanga at Wasps, contract runs out this year and is on at least 600k, if Farrell/Itoje/Billy or combo of Iseikwe/Skelton/Daly/Spencer/Goode/Mako became available, would we move him on...

It's going to be a really difficult few months for players all around the league.

 

[will311293]

I do feel for the fans and for not only your players but also players/coaches around the league...

Suddenly there could be a huge influx of quality talent (coaches/players) to the league just as contracts are up for renewal.
This could be a shaky few months for everyone but i do feel for you the fans, because as much as there may have been inklings and comments for years, there's nothing that you can do about it and technically your being punished for what soe would call mismanagement.

Quick query, noticed that due to Figallo/Rhodes etc. don't count against the salary cap as they haven't played this season. Now correct me if i'm wrong, but surely Sarries could have just not played Farrell, Itoje, Daly, Mako, Billy, Williams, Koch, George etc for this season and then they wouldn't have been counted this season as theyfigured out the issues to getting under £7m. Theirsquad without them is still easily good enough and consistent enough to stay up as they proved at the start of the season?

 

[ncurd]

The only issue with auto-relegation as I see it is it gives little incentive for other clubs to buy out contracts on existing players. 2 bird one stones, players get relegated will want to leave will take even less money.

But Saracens cheated, then until recently tried to weasel their way out of it before accepting they were little sympathy here.

 

[Which Tyler]

Where is the evidence Bath hasnt been investigated at all?

At all? Of course they've been investigated - but for the specific 2014-15 investigation - we were clear.
See post #1 of this thread (though it appears that I misremembered; I'd thoght Leicester had also publicly declared their innocence back then)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/r...r-Nigel-Wray-business-four-England-stars.html

"In 2014, Sportsmail revealed that PRL had launched an inquiry into Saracens and Bath following allegations raised by a whistleblower.

PRL never confirmed the names of the clubs involved, but every side except Saracens, Bath and Leicester publicly denied their set-up was being investigated.

Later, it appeared as though only Saracens had been in the spotlight. The probe lasted nearly a year and came to an end when an out-of-court settlement was reached."

 

[Amiga500]

The only thing that will do either (both) of those is relegating Sarries AND ringfencing the Prem.

Even hardcore atheists are doing laps of their local church saying decades of the rosary for this to happen...

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Haha, i doubt chiefs have any room left, much as they might try. They were close still when Cordero/Lawday left and with Hogg in this season and Grey next season doubt there's room.

Agree that we probably have very little room left in the cap but in regards to Gray I'm pretty sure he's going to be replacing White as a marquee player. We're also likely to lose Dennis.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

One thing to remember when looking at players/wages is the relative prominence of the players.

Tom Francis joined chiefs as a championship player and is now a grandslam winning international starter - that's gonna be a serious wage increase, for example.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

One thing to remember when looking at players/wages is the relative prominence of the players.

Tom Francis joined chiefs as a championship player and is now a grandslam winning international starter - that's gonna be a serious wage increase, for example.

I doubt we'd bother keeping Francis on to be honest, but yeah that's the case for quite a lot of our players.

Reports that Saracens will have to cut their wages by £2 million (!!!) by the end of the month or they will be relegated.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I doubt we'd bother keeping Francis on to be honest

He signed a new contract just after the 2019 six nations

 

[Leinster Fan]

I don't like Saracens, but this does seem a bit unfair. Seems like they're being punished twice for the same crime. Getting back under the cap in the same season they were punished for the initial breach was never going to be feasible and punishing them for failing to do that seems more like a desperation to see them go down from the other clubs and the Prem than anything else.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was wondering where this "Automatic relegation" thing came from, as I didn't think ti was part of the rules, but apparently Saracens are going to be hit with another 35pt deduction for this season which would put them on -42.

53pts behind 11th - however there's a maximum of 70pts left available for them (14 games) so Tigers aren't out of the woods yet

 

[TommiG88]

Just a quick addition on the "This will kill the game in England" and "This will kill Saracens"
Plenty of other leagues have survived one of their biggest participants (Juventus, Rangers) being relegated.
The only thing that will do either (both) of those is relegating Sarries AND ringfencing the Prem.

In what way did the Scottish league survive? Celtic won it at a canter every season. A fore gone conclusion before a ball was kicked. Ruined.

Juventus is more of a fair one, but the Italian is full of big teams. Inter, Milan, Napoli, Rome, Lazio, so it was always going to survive.

I personally think it will be unfair to hit Saracens with another penalty. Give them until the end of the season to sort it.

 

[Scotty]

I don't like Saracens, but this does seem a bit unfair. Seems like they're being punished twice for the same crime. Getting back under the cap in the same season they were punished for the initial breach was never going to be feasible and punishing them for failing to do that seems more like a desperation to see them go down from the other clubs and the Prem than anything else.

As a chiefs fan im not the biggest sarries fan for obvious reasons but i dont want to see them relegated, i think it should be same punishment next season(-35 and smaller fine) if they cant manage to get below the cap this season this season. To give them the biggest fine and deduction in the regulations and then giving it again in the same season seems abit unfair to me.

Random question but could they not say for instance these 3+ players will not play for the rest of the season. They still pay them but they cant play just to give them time to get buys and get under the cap? So basicly they dont count towards the cap but sarries still have to pay for them to do nothing. Guessing not allowed but still.

 

[General Melchett]

Random question but could they not say for instance these 3+ players will not play for the rest of the season. They still pay them but they cant play just to give them time to get buys and get under the cap? So basicly they dont count towards the cap but sarries still have to pay for them to do nothing. Guessing not allowed but still.

I'm not sure if this would be popular as it would effectively be punishing players (who I imagine want to play) for mismanagement at board level. Loaning the players out might be an option. I'm sure Glasgow would take Maitland for example (their back three needs an upgrade) which would give him game time and potentially cover most of his salary.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

As a chiefs fan im not the biggest sarries fan for obvious reasons but i dont want to see them relegated, i think it should be same punishment next season(-35 and smaller fine) if they cant manage to get below the cap this season this season. To give them the biggest fine and deduction in the regulations and then giving it again in the same season seems abit unfair to me.

Random question but could they not say for instance these 3+ players will not play for the rest of the season. They still pay them but they cant play just to give them time to get buys and get under the cap? So basicly they dont count towards the cap but sarries still have to pay for them to do nothing. Guessing not allowed but still.

Figallo, Rhodes and Clark aren't going to make up for anywhere near £2 mil if that is the correct figure. Doubt adding Goode to that equation would either.