Salary Cap Investigations

[Leonormous Boozer]

The cap is set by PRL.
PRL is the 13 clubs

Ok, makes sense that it's on the low side so.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I've been bored, whilst the wife has been watching Big Bang Theory - so I've kinda done it for you.

"World Class" (players who IMO would be in the conversation for the World rubgy squad in the Rugby Galactic Cup 2020)
1 Bath
0 Bristol
1 Exeter
0 Gloucester
1 Harlequins
2 Leicester
1 L Irish
1 Northampton
1 Sale
5 Saracens
0 Wasps
0 Worcester
0.78 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Lions Class" (Lions, and those from non-Lions countries that IMO would have gone on an equivolent tour). Excludes all included above.
4 Bath
2 Bristol
2 Exeter
1 Gloucester
1 Harlequins
4 Leicester
4 L Irish
3 Northampton
1 Sale
6 Saracens
1 Wasps
1 Worcester
2.11 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Estabished Internationals" (12+ caps). Excludes all included above.
4 Bath
8 Bristol
9 Exeter
11 Gloucester
11 Harlequins
5 Leicester
8 L Irish
3 Northampton
9 Sale
6 Saracens
6 Wasps
2 Worcester
7.33 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

"Fringe Internationals" (1-11 caps). Excludes all included above.
8 Bath
4 Bristol
9 Exeter
8 Gloucester
8 Harlequins
10 Leicester
6 L Irish
9 Northampton
8 Sale
8 Saracens
9 Wasps
7 Worcester
8.11 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap

Total number of capped players/ total number of players (combined number of caps in brackets).
17/49 Bath (539 caps)
14/47 Bristol (260 caps)
21/51 Exeter (419 caps)
20/40 Gloucester (187 caps)
21/45 Harlequins (653 caps)
21/48 Leicester (602 caps)
19/46 L Irish (518 caps)
16/47 Northampton (464 caps)
19/34 Sale (298 caps)
25/41 Saracens (662 caps)
16/44 Wasps (214 caps)
10/45 Worcester (130 caps)
18.33/45 = Average for the 9 clubs spending around the cap (404 caps)

All cap numbers taken the player's wiki page


Saracens have players in each of the first 2 groups as other culbs have in the 2 groups of combined. They don't make space for that, by having particularly fewer in the other groups.
NB. Saracens could name a full match-day squad of capped players, and then have other capped players bringing on the water bottles - EVERYONE else runs out of caps before completing the bench, 2 clubs fall short of naming a starting XV.
I would appreciate it if @Yoshimitsu could point to which club he thinks stands out from the crowd as likely over-spenders.

Firstly thanks for the fair challenge it has certainly made me re-evaluate my stance. I think my views are coloured by some positive experiences with Saracens and also a natural suspicion that they are unlikely to be the only culprits. However, your analysis does give me pause for thought.

I'd ask to see your working but I suspect I'm on a hiding to nothing. Whilst there's a degree of subjectivity e.g. non qualified "lions", it's unlikely to shift the argument far enough my way to be definitive.

A couple of things that I'd question for example that there's a direct positive correlation between number of caps and cost to employ? Jason Leonard has a bundle of caps you could probably employ him for a pie and a pint. I assume your analysis is based on squads from this year? There has been movement in the last couple of years that may affect things. Again probably not enough to bring me comfort.

It's interesting to introspect regarding this. Usually I'm an absolutist when it comes to abiding by rules and punishment should people fail to do so. For example the shambles that wada and the IOC have become saddens me greatly. If the outcome of this sanction is the destruction of Saracens I guess I'd believe it's too high a cost to bear. But no doubt you could reply that's exactly why Wray doubled down.... It certainly appears that he did.

 

[Which Tyler]

Firstly thanks for the fair challenge it has certainly made me re-evaluate my stance. I think my views are coloured by some positive experiences with Saracens and also a natural suspicion that they are unlikely to be the only culprits. However, your analysis does give me pause for thought.

I'd ask to see your working but I suspect I'm on a hiding to nothing. Whilst there's a degree of subjectivity e.g. non qualified "lions", it's unlikely to shift the argument far enough my way to be definitive.

A couple of things that I'd question for example that there's a direct positive correlation between number of caps and cost to employ? Jason Leonard has a bundle of caps you could probably employ him for a pie and a pint. I assume your analysis is based on squads from this year? There has been movement in the last couple of years that may affect things. Again probably not enough to bring me comfort.

It's interesting to introspect regarding this. Usually I'm an absolutist when it comes to abiding by rules and punishment should people fail to do so. For example the shambles that wada and the IOC have become saddens me greatly. If the outcome of this sanction is the destruction of Saracens I guess I'd believe it's too high a cost to bear. But no doubt you could reply that's exactly why Wray doubled down.... It certainly appears that he did.

No problem showing my work if I can do so reasonably (and when I get home, where I saved it) - and yes, I fully agree that my interpretation of "World Class" and "Lions Class" are entirely subjective and open to debate (as is my assertion that 12 caps ump you from "fringe" to "established" at international level. I would also have liked to include another group who've been involved with national training squads in the last 18 months or so "uncapped fringe players" but I was losing the will to live by that point) - I just didn't want to spark that perennial debate here as I didn't feel it was the place for it.
The point of the exercise was to try to take emotion out of it and provide some raw data. Before all of this I didn't think they were over the cap, or maybe just a little. Then when the co-investment story broke, I thought that that would explain all the overspend. But now we know (well, it's been reported by reputable journalists) that it was more than just the co-investments, and that they smashed the cap... I needed to see if that added up. My gut feeling was that I wouldn't be too surprised if Sarries were over, by around about the 5% allowance, and that no-one else would be by much. That analysis changes my mind, and the reported 20% or so excess seems... reasonable, assuming that the other 9 are actually spending somewhere around the cap limit.

I also agree that sheer number of caps alone is only part of salary negotiations; which is why I only included it for the sake of completion (I also don't 100% trust Wiki to get that right - it depends on when someone could last be bothered to update the profile). But I think the categories I used are a reasonable to give an overall view - which is all I was intending. Besides which, of course, the number of caps is data that is available, and I wanted to reduce subjective interpretation as much as I reasonably could.

Ultimately if you line up Saracen's first and second choice in each position, and the same for any other club; and picked the "on paper" team; then the point of the salary cap is that they'd be broadly equivalent numbers for any 2 clubs spending about the same. Saracens would trounce any other club in that comparison, and judging by the above, to reach "broadly equivalent" to Saracens, you'd need to pick from at least 2 other clubs, not one.

 

[BrokenWing]

This could just mean they just have to declare what they were paying the players. Doesn't stipulate that they have had to abide by the salary cap in the previous season.

 

[Reiser99]

This could just mean they just have to declare what they were paying the players. Doesn't stipulate that they have had to abide by the salary cap in the previous season.

Where did you get that? It references regulations 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 so would be interesting to see what they say as well. I reckon regulation 4 is probably all to do with the salary cap.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd ask to see your working but I suspect I'm on a hiding to nothing. Whilst there's a degree of subjectivity e.g. non qualified "lions", it's unlikely to shift the argument far enough my way to be definitive.

This is the best I can do, I'm afraid - obviously, the info is in Excel, which can't be uploaded here. So just the raw data: .
If you'd like to discuss who counts as "World Class" or "Lions Class" then I'd suggest it needs a different thread.
FTR; my "World Class" players were: J Marler, M Vunipola, O Franks, M Itoje, T Faletau, B Vunipola
F De Klerk, N Phipps, O Farrell, M Tuilagi, J May, S Hogg, L Williams.

My "Lions Class" outsiders were: J Afoa, T Polota-Nau, B Franks, J Figallo, S Kepu, L De Jaager, F Louw
F Houghaard, M Fekitoa, W Naholo, C Piutau.

If you'd rather, we could always combine the categories a bit (below in quotes, trying not to annoy other thread users by making them scroll past it.

Marquee Class (top 2 above):
11 Saracens
6 Leicester
5 Bath
5 L.Irish
4 Northampton
3 Exeter
2.89 Average of 9
2 Bristol
2 Harlequins
2 Sale
1 Gloucester
1 Wasps
1 Worcester
Sarries have as many Marquee players as the next 2 clubs combined

Capped International (established or otherwise)
19 Gloucester
19 Harlequins
18 Exeter
17 Sale
15.44 Average of 9
15 Leicester
15 Wasps
14 L.Irish
14 Saracens
12 Bath
12 Bristol
12 Northampton
9 Worcester
And they don't lose out in terms of capped depth

Uncapped Players
35 Worcester
33 Bristol
32 Bath
31 Northampton
30 Exeter
28 Wasps
27 Leicester
27 L Irish
26.67 Average of 9
24 Harlequins
20 Gloucester
16 Saracens
15 Sale
They just make up for it by having fewer uncapped players.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This is the best I can do, I'm afraid - obviously, the info is in Excel, which can't be uploaded here. So just the raw data: View attachment 7983 .
If you'd like to discuss who counts as "World Class" or "Lions Class" then I'd suggest it needs a different thread.
FTR; my "World Class" players were: J Marler, M Vunipola, O Franks, M Itoje, T Faletau, B Vunipola
F De Klerk, N Phipps, O Farrell, M Tuilagi, J May, S Hogg, L Williams.

My "Lions Class" outsiders were: J Afoa, T Polota-Nau, B Franks, J Figallo, S Kepu, L De Jaager, F Louw
F Houghaard, M Fekitoa, W Naholo, C Piutau.

If you'd rather, we could always combine the categories a bit (below in quotes, trying not to annoy other thread users by making them scroll past it.

Great posts and incredible grind but you've lost all credibility by not having Noel Reid down as at least world class mate!

 

[Which Tyler]

Great posts and incredible grind but you've lost all credibility by not having Noel Reid down as at least world class mate!

I'm sorry - who?

Ahh - you meant our worst performing club's 8th choice centre?...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm sorry - who?

Ahh - you meant our worst performing club's 8th choice centre?...

He's a huge Saints fan. Was madness for Tigers to sign him. When he's at home he's the best player to ever grace the premiership.

 

[The Seeker]

With the Saracens being relegated, it looks like Newcastle will be moving up next season, at this time anyway (they currently have an 8 point lead) over Cornish.

Is that how it works? I've never seen the relegation process put in action before.

 

[bushytop]

With the Saracens being relegated, it looks like Newcastle will be moving up next season, at this time anyway (they currently have an 8 point lead) over Cornish.

Is that how it works? I've never seen the relegation process put in action before.

Pretty much... there used to be play offs but I think it's automatic now.

 

[The Seeker]

Pretty much... there used to be play offs but I think it's automatic now.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

 

[Scotty]

With the Saracens being relegated, it looks like Newcastle will be moving up next season, at this time anyway (they currently have an 8 point lead) over Cornish.

Is that how it works? I've never seen the relegation process put in action before.

And more than likly the team with the most space in their salary cap, they may be having their pick of sarries.

 

[bushytop]

And more than likly the team with the most space in their salary cap, they may be having their pick of sarries.

Apparently Lyon have made an approach for a few of them this weekend.

 

[Scotty]

Apparently Lyon have made an approach for a few of them this weekend.

Really, any idea who? I still want the rumour to be true that malins is coming to Chiefs.

 

[bushytop]

Really, any idea who? I still want the rumour to be true that malins is coming to Chiefs.

Faz, Maro and Binny... but it could be paper-talk.

 

[Reiser99]

Faz, Maro and Binny... but it could be paper-talk.

I think the only way they'd go is if they were told they would still be picked under the exceptional reasons clause (is that still there?)

 

[bushytop]

I think the only way they'd go is if they were told they would still be picked under the exceptional reasons clause (is that still there?)

I heard someone mention it on one of the many Podcasts that I've listened to this last couple of days, can't remember who though... or which podcast. Thing is if the best team in your union gets relegated (not for rugby reasons) and it contains half the national squad (minor exaggeration) if this wouldn't be classified as 'exceptional reasons' what would?

 

[Scotty]

Faz, Maro and Binny... but it could be paper-talk.

Could be season long loan so contracted to come back to sarries when they are back in the prem so exception made. And other players will have to be let go.

Likely a true offer for them but also likely they wont go but i am interested to see what will happen. And still think falcons will be the ones who bennefit the most.

 

[Reiser99]

Could be season long loan so contracted to come back to sarries when they are back in the prem so exception made. And other players will have to be let go.

Likely a true offer for them but also likely they wont go but i am interested to see what will happen. And still think falcons will be the ones who bennefit the most.

Surely they've been punished enough. Making them go and listen to people speak Geordie is just cruel.