[RWC2023 QF4] France vs South Africa (15/10/2023)

[Bada-Bing!]

All players retire to their goal line and do not overstep that line until the kicker moves in any direction to begin their approach to kick. When the kicker does this, they may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players in these actions.

How was Kolbe behind his goal line when Ramos started his run up?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

How was Kolbe behind his goal line when Ramos started his run up?

Without being able to see the full wide angle from the very start, Ramos takes 2 very slow steps towards the ball before he begins his proper run up. I'm inclined to think this was legit and is a fault on Ramos part for having this slow phase before the kick.

 

[Batsumy]

Without being able to see the full wide angle from the very start, Ramos takes 2 very slow steps towards the ball before he begins his proper run up. I'm inclined to think this was legit and is a fault on Ramos part for having this slow phase before the kick.

Thats discussable, all players have some form of movement a bit before that go for the kicking, then a movement of head could be taken as a signal as well for example, what is the limit ?? Clearly that was not the start of the run phase of Ramos. And whatever interpretation we can have on it now, there should have been a clear check on the video, the impression again is that there was no will to check things more from ref team on rather important and defining moments yesterday evening

 

[BrokenWing]

The one on the post by Batsumy is probably the best angle you'll get. But it's still difficult to tell if that's the actual start of the kick. If it is, Kolbe is nowhere near being behind the line.

 

[Batsumy]

btw who was the TMO ref yesterday ?

 

[Glassjaw]

The Etzebeth interception is certainly the most contentious stuff of the match, this is a try ball for France (to 14-0) and there is a decision that is taken quickly by I do not know even who... "nothing to look here" whereas we should have seen this with on the big screen and from any angle possible to make sure that the decision was the right one.

Yes, and as I said earlier, even if the ball was backwards (I'm not sure it was but anyway) you CAN'T touch it in this situation unless you're in total control of the ball and then pass it backwards to a team mate.
The fact it's forwards, backwards, intentional or not is not even a question at first, he's not in control of the ball so referee should have done his job : cheking if it's a scrum or a penalty/penalty try, yellow or not.
This is one of the worst refering decision ever seen, up there with the Scotland-Australia one.

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

Comment from a French fan on Youtube on the Galthie/DuPont comments.

Just to clarify a few things about the ref issue : Im french and that question from the French reporter was quite scummy. Dupont never said the "ref was bad". They said the following :
- They admitted they thought the quality of the officiating didnt live up to the quality of the game, but that it wasnt that bad either
- Then proceeding to say that, even if they were mistakes, Ben O'Keefe should never be targeted personally, and that there is an entire team of TMO behind him that didnt facilitate his work
- That they would appreciate if further questions would not go on this terrain, as they dont want to criticise the ref
- That whatever mistakes might have occured, it went both ways and favoured both FRA and SA alternatively
- That wathever mistakes might have occured, they take nothing away from SA's win

They were extremely fair and measured in their terms and they never wouldve mentioned the ref if the topic wasnt brought up in the first place (by that same reporter btw!!)


Video for reference:

 

[Wichita]

The one on the post by Batsumy is probably the best angle you'll get. But it's still difficult to tell if that's the actual start of the kick. If it is, Kolbe is nowhere near being behind the line.

https://www.lequipe.fr/_medias/img-photo-jpg/-capture-d-ecran-tf1/1500000001847886/0:0,1888:958-828-420-75/85c00.jpg

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

https://www.lequipe.fr/_medias/img-photo-jpg/-capture-d-ecran-tf1/1500000001847886/0:0,1888:958-828-420-75/85c00.jpg

I think we should know by now that in rugby as in life, some things just go your way, whatever the perspective is.

 

[Stade Rochelais]

@Whore of Shame Thank you for preparing a place for me on the bench, together we will feel less stupid, we must support each other in this terrible ordeal.

 

[BrokenWing]

https://www.lequipe.fr/_medias/img-photo-jpg/-capture-d-ecran-tf1/1500000001847886/0:0,1888:958-828-420-75/85c00.jpg

That's a still picture though, Ramos took a couple of shuffles sideways first and you have no idea from that if he has started to move.

Personally, I'm not convinced Kolbe was behind the line and I would have looked at it a bit closer than it was(I don't think it was given a second glance btw)

 

[OwenPB]

Without being able to see the full wide angle from the very start, Ramos takes 2 very slow steps towards the ball before he begins his proper run up. I'm inclined to think this was legit and is a fault on Ramos part for having this slow phase before the kick.

I've seen stills floating about that show the point Ramos started to move. Kolbe was over the 5m line at that point.

I'm on the side of the "non-conspiracy but BoK was clearly lax on SA" side of things. There are multiple examples of clear infringements in the game that were not called or checked and all of them benefitted SA. All this "the game is complex" stuff is crap, otherwise we'd be having this conversation after every game, which is not the case. You can disagree with a ref on a given decision or two, but still think that they reffed the game well. Barnes on Saturday, despite my pre-match misgivings, was excellent. Did I agree with him everything? No, but that's rugby. He reffed the game fairly for both teams.

BoK is an experienced ref. He knows what's happening in the rucks and at the breakdown. He can see the knock ons and offsides. He chose not to call them or check them. In a TMO world that would take seconds to verify potentially match-changing plays, he has the opportunity to time off at any point and just make sure, but chose not to. If he was right, everyone sees it and we play on. If not (and he wasn't, you can't stick your hand out and not catch it, especially on the goalline), it's a penalty try and a card. 14-0 and SA don't get their 1st try from the subsequent lineout..... The TMO is there to help confirm or overturn these decisions, not for the ref to ignore it and go all prima-donna.

In a 1-point game, taking a few seconds to make sure for either of these two decisions (and loads of smaller ones) is the difference between letting both teams play their best rugby and basically choosing which team advances to the semis.

 

[Wichita]

That's a still picture though, Ramos took a couple of shuffles sideways first and you have no idea from that if he has started to move.

To me, it is a still picture of a still Ramos with both feet on the ground. If you count the little shuffle left or right as the start of play, neither Wilkinson nor Farrell would ever have a chance of converting in their whole career

 

[Batsumy]

Yes, and as I said earlier, even if the ball was backwards (I'm not sure it was but anyway) you CAN'T touch it in this situation unless you're in total control of the ball and then pass it backwards to a team mate.
The fact it's forwards, backwards, intentional or not is not even a question at first, he's not in control of the ball so referee should have done his job : cheking if it's a scrum or a penalty/penalty try, yellow or not.
This is one of the worst refering decision ever seen, up there with the Scotland-Australia one.

Are you sure of that ? I'm unsure there if it is the rule. Lets say that if Etzebeth dive with one hand and push clearly the ball backward on the ground, it should have been penalised ? if you have the precise rule, I would be interested. The thing I'm 100% sure of is that he was not in position to control the ball with his 2 hands hence why it would be important to understand then if he has the right to bring backward with one hand...I think he can and that your statement is not correct but possibly I'm wrong ?

 

[BrokenWing]

To me, it is a still picture of a still Ramos with both feet on the ground. If you count the little shuffle left or right, Neither Wilkinson nor Farrell would ever have a chance of converting in their whole career

That's your opinion though isn't it. You can't be sure until there's a video of the entire thing from before Ramos starts his movement. As for Wilkinson and Farrell, it's up to the opposition to charge them down

If it was that clear cut, I'm sure the French TV crews could find a few hundred replays... They usually can when it's to their benefit.

 

[Glassjaw]

This Kolbe/Ramos moment is not the biggest thing, I even see this legit on video.
No, the real turning point of the game is the Etzebeth """""""interception""""""". Should have been 14-0 and SA down to 14.

 

[miccloarch]

It's extremely tight, but Kolbe moves just before Ramos starts his kick.

 

[Atmavictu]

There are now 1k tickets in the resale portal for ABs Arg….pretty incredible given the tickets demands 2 years ago where it was mission impossible to buy any for the knockout stage.

I still think any other Ref and France would have won. But it is now spilled milk…Ireland really deserves to host a WC, fantastic crowd

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Thats discussable, all players have some form of movement a bit before that go for the kicking, then a movement of head could be taken as a signal as well for example, what is the limit ?? Clearly that was not the start of the run phase of Ramos. And whatever interpretation we can have on it now, there should have been a clear check on the video, the impression again is that there was no will to check things more from ref team on rather important and defining moments yesterday evening

The laws state a player can attempt a charge down as soon as the kicker makes any movement towards the ball, the exception being if the ball has fallen over and they are moving to correct it.

Yes, and as I said earlier, even if the ball was backwards (I'm not sure it was but anyway) you CAN'T touch it in this situation unless you're in total control of the ball and then pass it backwards to a team mate.
The fact it's forwards, backwards, intentional or not is not even a question at first, he's not in control of the ball so referee should have done his job : cheking if it's a scrum or a penalty/penalty try, yellow or not.
This is one of the worst refering decision ever seen, up there with the Scotland-Australia one.

That's wrong, there is nothing in the law that states a player needs to be in control of the ball if he knocks it backwards. If Etzebeth stuck his hand out and the ball goes backwards, it's completely legal. It looked very much like it went forwards though, in which case then he does need to control the ball, which he clearly didn't.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The training I got at school was as soon as the kicker picks up a foot you run. Ramos took so long and Kolbe is so fast off the mark I didn't think twice about it but it would be nice to have the angle to confirm either way.