[RWC2023 QF3] England vs Fiji (15/10/2023)

[Ragey Erasmus]

Fiji captain hints that England benefited from ‘sub-conscious bias’

Fiji captain Waisea Nayacalevu and head coach Simon Raiwalui had their say on the officiating after their Rugby World Cup defeat to England.

www.planetrugby.com

Amazing he can moan about rucks and mauls considering they nearly always had their hands on the floor at the breakdown and every time the English maul got moving, they would just come in the side and collapse it without ever being punished. Our maul was one of our strongest weapons all game, theirs wasn't yet somehow ours was the one that always collapsed when moving forwards, funny that. Also the ref completely ignored accusations of slapping leading to one of the scuffles and ignored a hand to the face in another. Also ignored the fact Fiji were intentionally going in for afters all the time and clearly pushing the boundaries with foul play in the afters too and got away with all of it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To caveat all this… if we beat South Africa the entirity of this post goes out the window.

No it doesn't.

Any team can have a good or a bad day, but it's the underlying patterns you need to look at. Jones got a contract extension on the back of the 19 semi when his CV screamed that he wasn't a long term merchant.

England shouldn't really have a prayer against the Boks, but….

The Boks have played two massive physically and emotionally draining matches against the - formerly - best 2 teams in the world.

Against that backdrop, worth noting that all of their starting pack last night was aged at least 31 with 3 of their forward subs also being 30+, the 2 28 year old babies being Snyman and Ox. Back line's a bit younger, but 4 of the starters were 29+ with the bench being 31, 29 and 34.

Everyone is also telling them they're shoo-ins for the final and quite probably the trophy. If ever there was a hard headed bunch who can put all that stuff to one side it's the Boks, but there is just an outside chance that they might not be at full throttle, although we would still need to be right on it to take advantage.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's South Africa levels of moaning and being a sore losers.

He's been like it all tournament, the way he talks to the refs on the pitch is incredibly disrespectful as well, plus his outburst at the press after the Portugal loss
I'm glad Fiji are out so we don't have to see him anymore - it's a shame because the rest of the side I really like, but he just puts a sour note on them

 

[Welsh Exile]

Amazing he can moan about rucks and mauls considering they nearly always had their hands on the floor at the breakdown and every time the English maul got moving, they would just come in the side and collapse it without ever being punished. Our maul was one of our strongest weapons all game, theirs wasn't yet somehow ours was the one that always collapsed when moving forwards, funny that. Also the ref completely ignored accusations of slapping leading to one of the scuffles and ignored a hand to the face in another. Also ignored the fact Fiji were intentionally going in for afters all the time and clearly pushing the boundaries with foul play in the afters too and got away with all of it.

I really dislike Ryanal, think he's a pretty bad ref but he was consistently bad for both teams yesterday.

I just find it funny how there is no mention of some of the bad decisions going against Fiji. Reading this thread you would think Fiji had Ryanal as their 16th man but against Wales it was a different story. It's almost like we're all biased.

 

[Makeshift10]

Interesting all the talk of the draw. In 2019, South Africa beat Italy, Namibia, Canada, Japan and Wales in order to reach the final. Not sure they, their press nor their fans were self-loathing when Kolisi lifted the trophy.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I really dislike Ryanal, think he's a pretty bad ref but he was consistently bad for both teams yesterday.

I just find it funny how there is no mention of some of the bad decisions going against Fiji. Reading this thread you would think Fiji had Ryanal as their 16th man but against Wales it was a different story. It's almost like we're all biased.

Yes we are all biased to varying degrees. However there was nothing even close to the equivalent of Wales giving away 5 penalties on their try line and 2 "final warnings" only for the Fiji to get a straight yellow down the other end. If there was anything you believe was comparable then by all means point it out.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I try and avoid most of the reffing arguments as they've got pretty much an impossible job with the complexity and speed of the game. Some of the noise around it from teams and fans alike has been a bit footballish which is a shame.

No harm in discussing decisions as it's part of the game but bias between sides or tiers is wide of the mark in my view. Until refs are replaced by AI you're dealing with humans and all their fallibilities. While you'd like to see 100% uniformity, all you can realistically hope for is refs being consistent over the course of any given match.

 

[TommiG88]

I really dislike Ryanal, think he's a pretty bad ref but he was consistently bad for both teams yesterday.

I just find it funny how there is no mention of some of the bad decisions going against Fiji. Reading this thread you would think Fiji had Ryanal as their 16th man but against Wales it was a different story. It's almost like we're all biased.

Sorry Exile, your posting your comment regarding the Fiji Wales game in the wrong thread

 

[Derpus]

Sorry Exile, your posting your comment regarding the Fiji Wales game in the wrong thread

View attachment 18178

that's a neat gif

 

[Welsh Exile]

I try and avoid most of the reffing arguments as they've got pretty much an impossible job with the complexity and speed of the game. Some of the noise around it from teams and fans alike has been a bit footballish which is a shame.

No harm in discussing decisions as it's part of the game but bias between sides or tiers is wide of the mark in my view. Until refs are replaced by AI you're dealing with humans and all their fallibilities. While you'd like to see 100% uniformity, all you can realistically hope for is refs being consistent over the course of any given match.

I agree. Cross tournament consistency is impossible but we should strive for in game consistency which I'm not sure we've got this tournament. You know officiating is in a state when Wayne Barnes is the best ref in the game.

 

[Geordie]

That's South Africa levels of moaning and being a sore losers.

Although it must be hard being beaten by such a poor English team.

Are they so poor?

 

[BrokenWing]

You know officiating is in a state when Wayne Barnes is the best ref in the game.

Whatever you do, don't call him a ******* cheat.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

That's South Africa levels of moaning and being a sore losers.

Although it must be hard being beaten by such a poor English team.

Using our shitness as a weapon against others... I like it

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yes we are all biased to varying degrees. However there was nothing even close to the equivalent of Wales giving away 5 penalties on their try line and 2 "final warnings" only for the Fiji to get a straight yellow down the other end. If there was anything you believe was comparable then by all means point it out.

It's not necessarily about finding like for like comparisons as there's a debate between what's more detrimental to a side anyway. Would you rather have one yellow card decision go against you or a ref being inconsistent during the 200 odd breakdowns you see during a game?

I would need to watch this game 2 or 3 more times to give a more detailed response but there were bad decisions to go against each side which, as sad as it is, is al you can really ask for.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's not necessarily about finding like for like comparisons as there's a debate between what's more detrimental to a side anyway. Would you rather have one yellow card decision go against you or a ref being inconsistent during the 200 odd breakdowns you see during a game?

I would need to watch this game 2 or 3 more times to give a more detailed response but there were bad decisions to go against each side which, as sad as it is, is al you can really ask for.

I'd say in the Wales game the breakdowns were generally a mess for both sides and similar in the England game. I can't see any decisions in the England game which were major slap in the faces of Fiji though, ironically seeing as it appears they slapped our player in the face. The Wales game had some decisions which went above and beyond generally getting away with stuff into completely different levels of reffing for both sides, such as the yellow card and lack of.

I'm just saying that Fiji complaining particularly about the maul when our maul was very clearly dominant and they kept collapsing it without any penalties is particularly bizarre, it's an area they got away with things far more than we did. Fiji had their fair share of illegal turnovers with hands on the floor etc so that was probably 50/50 both ways but I'd say the maul was definitely them getting away with it and the not looking at 2 separate incidents of foul play in the afters when it was a clear tactic of theirs is also something they got away with. There are 2 turnovers that stick in my head where we very clearly got lucky and Curry could have got a yellow for his no arms tackle.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Always high, direct contact to the head
Yellow card and off field review

 

[Which Tyler]

I try and avoid most of the reffing arguments as they've got pretty much an impossible job with the complexity and speed of the game. Some of the noise around it from teams and fans alike has been a bit footballish which is a shame.

No harm in discussing decisions as it's part of the game but bias between sides or tiers is wide of the mark in my view. Until refs are replaced by AI you're dealing with humans and all their fallibilities. While you'd like to see 100% uniformity, all you can realistically hope for is refs being consistent over the course of any given match.

Yeah, I think the closest you can get to bias from ref.s is teams being better at adapting their play to the ref - which is a skill, and one I'm happy to accept that some teams are better than others at. England, for example, are historically terrible at it; but probably better than just about any tier 2 country, purely through having greater access to the world class referees - both for club and country.

Cheating is the longest, and proudest tradition in rugby - hell the game was invented by someone cheating at football!
"It's only illegal if the ref notices" has been a cry in rugby for longer than I've been watching the game (40-odd years).

Tonnes is missed by ref.s, because every player is cheating just as much as they think they can get away with. Generally, these things even out - it's the clear and obvious mistakes (and warnings given, but ignored) that grate on the nerves, but even then, if the ref is consistently making that same mistake, then it's your job as a player to exploit that.
And it always feels unfair to the team who fails to adapt.

ETA: I should also add the language barrier - with more matey ref.s who are warning and coaching players, rather than blowing the whistle and then explaining - if there's a language barrier between the ref and the player, then there's a delay in the instruction being registered, and a slower-to-respond player is more likely to get the whistle blown against them. That goes for not understanding the instruction and for not understanding who the ref is speaking to. I'd say this is also a problem increased when the player feels they're in the right - you still have to obey the ref, but you also have to know that the ref disagrees with you.

 

[OldSchoolRugga]

This was an ok game to watch. England are really boring to watch. Fiji are exciting, but their ill discipline are always their downfall. England haven't met really stiff opposition yet, and that will not bode well for them.

 

[Saintjay]

I try and avoid most of the reffing arguments as they've got pretty much an impossible job with the complexity and speed of the game. Some of the noise around it from teams and fans alike has been a bit footballish which is a shame.

No harm in discussing decisions as it's part of the game but bias between sides or tiers is wide of the mark in my view. Until refs are replaced by AI you're dealing with humans and all their fallibilities. While you'd like to see 100% uniformity, all you can realistically hope for is refs being consistent over the course of any given match.

No amount of arguing on here or twitter has ever seen a result over turned or a game replayed.

My all means moan about decisions and refs but ultimately fans know to quote Dodge Ball it's "As useful as a c#ck flavoured lollipop".

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

England will be no pushovers, says Erasmus

South Africa's director of rugby Rassie Erasmus says they have not been taken in by the outside noise about England being a bad team and the statistics suggest Saturday's Rugby World Cup semi-final will…

www.france24.com

This is damming with faint praise at its finest.