[RWC2023 QF3] England vs Fiji (15/10/2023)

[BPM]

I'm beginning to think SB isn't the issue and it's simply a lack of quality players. Danny care 36, Ben Youngs 35, Farrell 32, Tuilagi 32, May 33, Daley 31. It's like a golden oldies team. There's some fundamental issue with English rugby if virtually your entire backline is in their 30s. Where's the fresh new talent coming through. Someone in this thread even said May wasn't getting a run for his club side.

We have plenty of promising young players. Particularly in the back three. However, there is a wider piece around how our age grade structure was royally screwed by Dean Ryan and we're still seeing the knock on effects. For a time, we were there or thereabouts for most of the U20 World Cups. Recently we've been a distance behind where we were.

 

[Scotty]

I think im the only one feeling pretty positive, we wernt/arnt in a great place yet got to a SF and done what we needed to do. Against opposition we didnt choose.

Not saying we are pushing for a WC ***le or even getting to a final but there are improvements on the team that lost to Wales and Fiji in the warm ups. This Fiji team pushed Wales and beat Aus, so they arnt pushovers and we kept then out despite there fightback.

Im not under any illusions or wearing rose tinted glasses i just think its not all doom and gloom, nothing will be fixed over night it will just take a rebuildpost wc.

 

[HamJan]

I think im the only one feeling pretty positive, we wernt/arnt in a great place yet got to a SF and done what we needed to do. Against opposition we didnt choose.

Not saying we are pushing for a WC ***le or even getting to a final but there are improvements on the team that lost to Wales and Fiji in the warm ups. This Fiji team pushed Wales and beat Aus, so they arnt pushovers and we kept then out despite there fightback.

Im not under any illusions or wearing rose tinted glasses i just think its not all doom and gloom, nothing will be fixed over night it will just take a rebuildpost wc.

You shouldn't be saying things like this Scotty because it sounds too sensible. After the last 12 months we've had I was genuinely worried that we might not get out of our group, but we've just won a game that we'd have lost anytime in the last year. And although I hear a lot of noise about England only in the semi final because we won a sh*t group, I don't hear much criticism for Argentina reaching a semi final and not winning a sh*t group.
I get that Borthwick isn't everybodies choice for the role, but he inherited a mess and he needs a decent amount of time to work with his own group of players before any decisions should be made on his future. Some of the comments on here are petty and ridiculous.

 

[Nudger]

Well 3 are class acts and loved by their fans and one is not and is detested by the fans.

They're all gobby and disliked by the opposition

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

This is the complete conundrum thrown up by the draw though.

We've beaten who have been put in front of us and made the most of our very lucky draw. Some credit for that, obviously.

But had we been in Scotland's or Italy's shoes we'd have been home weeks ago.

Our one good performance was the backs against the wall job against Arg.

Japan (nothing like 19 vintage) was job done and Chile irrelevant. We nearly blew it against Samoa and yesterday, after a decent start, almost chucked it away against Fiji who helped us with some pretty dumb rugby at times.

All of those sides are lower ranked than us and much worse funded with little in the way of top flight domestic structure to support their national teams.

The warm ups are largely irrelevant due to the mix and match sides and friendly nature of the games.

So, I'll ride the RWC train for as far as it takes us but I've not yet seen anything to suggest that we're looking more convincing as a team than in the 6N. Much as I disliked Jones, would he have got us this far too? Of course he would.

 

[BrokenWing]

Much as I disliked Jones, would he have got us this far too? Of course he would.

He would, but at least he's not giving pressers in Englands name that make you want to curl up in a ball.

 

[Saintjay]

I think im the only one feeling pretty positive, we wernt/arnt in a great place yet got to a SF and done what we needed to do. Against opposition we didnt choose.

Not saying we are pushing for a WC ***le or even getting to a final but there are improvements on the team that lost to Wales and Fiji in the warm ups. This Fiji team pushed Wales and beat Aus, so they arnt pushovers and we kept then out despite there fightback.

Im not under any illusions or wearing rose tinted glasses i just think its not all doom and gloom, nothing will be fixed over night it will just take a rebuildpost wc.

I think the first 40 England were ok. Probably better than they've been in awhile.

This teams similar to the one that beat SA in 2021 so not all is lost. I don't think we will win but there's hope. I'll cheer the boys on see how it goes. Most predicted the semi-final was as good as we were going to get.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The big issue, among many, is the complete lack of intensity with England. Everything is slow and ponderous and it's worrying how gassed we look at the 60 minute mark, to the extent sides that traditionally are supposed to be the ones tiring there are finishing stronger. It's not even like we are getting tired playing high intensity rugby, we are getting knackered playing slow, low intensity rugby. That is very very worrying. Couple that with Borthwick flat out refusing to use some subs and we are in a situation where we have subs not trusted, and therefore rusty from lack of game time, who will be coming on against one of the best teams in the world with subs who notoriously up the intensity. Borthwick has really ****** that up and that is entirely on him. If you don't trust a player to play, don't ******* pick them!

Main areas that need improving ASAP:

• Defenders constantly too slow to set as pillars either side of a ruck
• Slow speed to the ruck and woefully under-resourcing our own rucks
• Way too narrow in defence and little to no effort to drift once the ball starts to go wide
• Poorly lining up tackles to frequently falling off them
• Little effort to slow the ball down when the opposition get some speed, we just constantly try to fan across the field and STILL hold the view that we can largely ignore the ruck.

SA will be able to exploit all of those with ease. Add to how rarely we get back to assist a player taking a high ball, I think we are going to get absolutely stomped. SAs strengths hit every one of our weaknesses, they don't even need to adapt any plan to completely wipe us out. I'd say we need to adapt our plan, but I don't know what ours is. Aimless kicking and trying to outmuscle sides seems to be all we do, and we are not good at it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The big issue, among many, is the complete lack of intensity with England. Everything is slow and ponderous and it's worrying how gassed we look at the 60 minute mark, to the extent sides that traditionally are supposed to be the ones tiring there are finishing stronger. It's not even like we are getting tired playing high intensity rugby, we are getting knackered playing slow, low intensity rugby. That is very very worrying.

I'm wondering if this is actually much more of a mental thing. I know Borthwick banged on about the fitness, but it's hard to believe that any fully pro team is really that far behind the others and there was a full summer to work on it. Granted we've got some oldies, but so do the Boks and Ireland and in their differing ways both can keep up the intensity - just look at their group match.

When was the last time we had a game without a noticeable 20 minute+ dip?

While teamwork is obviously the main thing, all the best teams have players who can make critical interventions to change the course of a game. Earl did that last night but it's a rarity for us - in the space of a minute yesterday both Lawes and Itoje were totally manhandled - where are our equivalents? Lawes used to do that kind of thing before he went all Jack Willis and it's one of the reasons why I've always been such a massive Underhill fan.

 

[Geordie]

I'm wondering if this is actually much more of a mental thing. I know Borthwick banged on about the fitness, but it's hard to believe that any fully pro team is really that far behind the others and there was a full summer to work on it. Granted we've got some oldies, but so do the Boks and Ireland and in their differing ways both can keep up the intensity - just look at their group match.

When was the last time we had a game without a noticeable 20 minute+ dip?

While teamwork is obviously the main thing, all the best teams have players who can make critical interventions to change the course of a game. Earl did that last night but it's a rarity for us - in the space of a minute yesterday both Lawes and Itoje were totally manhandled - where are our equivalents? Lawes used to do that kind of thing before he went all Jack Willis and it's one of the reasons why I've always been such a massive Underhill fan.

i think they were hoping George Martin would bring that along with Manu and Bill V. But George is still a little early for this level...but he will get there. The other two are done now...and hopefully will be part of the Post world cup exodus.

But ive said all along...we miss some real heavy duty knuckle draggers. Its one of the reasons i championed Ted Hill so much (who incidentally has started the season very nicely) Im all for skilled, talented players...but you need some raw power in there (like Underhill) to make the huge hits to change the status of the game if you are under serious pressure.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I don't know if I entirely agree about the lack of intensity. In some areas of the game perhaps. I mean it's true that with our ruck speed, players knowing what they're doing when we have the ball etc - comparing us to Ireland, we look like we're having a family Sunday at the beach. To an extent, twas ever thus with England. Our intensity without the ball is better, but then that's arguably more straightforward, if draining.

Regardless I feel uncomfortable with how often Borthwick references being written off.. It doesn't suggest the right mindset at all.

As much as we've been very lucky with the draw, it has also prepared us extremely badly for a game against South Africa... To be in the final 4 without having played any of the top 6 sides is not good (admittedly on this, not sure exactly where Argentina were ranked before the World Cup, but they're clearly not at their best at the moment.

Also.... Two more games now for England either way....

 

[Geordie]

However just to contradict what i said above....for 40 mins we controlled that game physically against one of the most physical teams especially at the breakdown...and were cruising...so maybe it is a mental thing...they switch off.

 

[TommiG88]

However just to contradict what i said above....for 40 mins we controlled that game physically against one of the most physical teams especially at the breakdown...and were cruising...so maybe it is a mental thing...they switch off.

We also fell off a few tackles, Chessums on the sideline after the kick off was poor. We would have murdered Hill for that

 

[Wendigo7]

I don't know if I entirely agree about the lack of intensity. In some areas of the game perhaps. I mean it's true that with our ruck speed, players knowing what they're doing when we have the ball etc - comparing us to Ireland, we look like we're having a family Sunday at the beach. To an extent, twas ever thus with England. Our intensity without the ball is better, but then that's arguably more straightforward, if draining.

Regardless I feel uncomfortable with how often Borthwick references being written off.. It doesn't suggest the right mindset at all.

As much as we've been very lucky with the draw, it has also prepared us extremely badly for a game against South Africa... To be in the final 4 without having played any of the top 6 sides is not good (admittedly on this, not sure exactly where Argentina were ranked before the World Cup, but they're clearly not at their best at the moment.

Also.... Two more games now for England either way....

To caveat all this… if we beat South Africa the entirity of this post goes out the window.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

To caveat all this… if we beat South Africa the entirity of this post goes out the window.

Of course it does. And boy I'd be overjoyed if that was the case.

If we lose to south africa, I'm also not necessarily proven 'right', because there is such a gulf there that it's unclear whether we could do anything to prevent our "fate"

 

[Which Tyler]

i think they were hoping George Martin would bring that along with Manu and Bill V. But George is still a little early for this level...but he will get there. The other two are done now...and hopefully will be part of the Post world cup exodus.

But ive said all along...we miss some real heavy duty knuckle draggers. Its one of the reasons i championed Ted Hill so much (who incidentally has started the season very nicely) Im all for skilled, talented players...but you need some raw power in there (like Underhill) to make the huge hits to change the status of the game if you are under serious pressure.

Gotta say, if you want to brutalise opponents, then there's a lot to credit a 6. Hill 7. Underhill pairing on the flanks - including that they're now playing together at club level, which always helps cohesion.
Then add a Willis, Mercer of CSS to finish of the threesome.

ETA: Remembering that Barbeary's at Bath - if those 3 click, and play together regularly, you could easily go for a club combination for the whole unit.
Hill will have to improve his stat.s first though.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Fiji captain hints that England benefited from ‘sub-conscious bias’

Fiji captain Waisea Nayacalevu and head coach Simon Raiwalui had their say on the officiating after their Rugby World Cup defeat to England.

www.planetrugby.com

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Fiji captain hints that England benefited from ‘sub-conscious bias’

Fiji captain Waisea Nayacalevu and head coach Simon Raiwalui had their say on the officiating after their Rugby World Cup defeat to England.

www.planetrugby.com

Bold considering the amount of overlooked foul play on their end.

Botia should have seen yellow for striking and Fiji 21 for the most blatant stamp of all time

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

That's South Africa levels of moaning and being a sore losers.

Although it must be hard being beaten by such a poor English team.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Isn't it funny how during the Wales Fiji game there was uproar on here but when England play Fiji there is literally no mention of any bad refereeing unless it's referring to bad decisions against England.