[RWC2023 QF2] Ireland vs New Zealand (14/10/2023)

[dirty harry]

My best memory of rugby fans singing was after the BIL win in the 3rd test win over Australia- Fields of Athenry, Flower of Scotland, Bread of Heaven, Sweet Chariot all in succession. And that was 11am in the morning in a Casino just off of Leicester Square.

I was there lol... I was also in Melbourne when the same happened... except the final song everyone started to 'oof face' each other hahaha

Not the most inclusive response granted, but hilarious none the same

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

In Paris. We have this

 

[TRF_Olyy]

In Paris. We have this

- Whore of Shame after looking up "bed bugs" on Wikipedia

 

[Umaga's Witness]

TBF - all countries have a long and glorious history of enjoying songs out of context.
I Will Survive
Freed From Desire
Every Breath You Take
Macarena
One Way or Another
Born in the USA
Poker Face
Hands Free
etc etc

The French have a better excuse than the English speaking world, in that it's their second language, and most of them won't have clue what the lyrics are, let alone the context for them.
They like Zombie because it's a cracking great song. So did I, for that matter - I knew it was anti-war, but didn't know it was in reaction to IRA bombings until just now.
They're allowed to.

I didn't even know the lyrics til now, didn't stop me singing it. Hell I didn't even know it was Irish (oh no I might have upset someone. Well then come at me, with "your bonds and your bonds and your bonds and your bonds" because you know what, "it's in your hair, in your hair, zombie, zombie, zombie")

 

[munstermuffin]

It's usually Connacht now.

Connacht rarely sang fields of Athenry which I may add in a geographical sense a bit stretches in to Clare so we can say Munster has .01% ofthose fields

 

[Zac_ETNZ]

By picking De Groot I'm hoping Fozzie is trying to send the Irish the message that NZ are confident enough to play with 14 for 72 minutes of the game and still win.... That's Eddie Jones level confidence

Quite an awful call on Telea, unless the senior players voted on that. Leicester doesn't have the same defensive reading the Mark does in my opinion, and being stood up by the Uruguayan winger who was running backwards at the time is something I haven't seen done to a NZ winger maybe ever. And the chase back was lethargic. It's a wonder Leicester didn't miss curfew as well given how slow he is

Roigard did make some poor decisions against Uruguay, so judgement call by Fozzie there. Cam not clearing quick when Dmac was the only AB in the maul, and then deciding he was going to snipe around the edge while the entire AB pack stood flat footed 15 metres away waiting for the ball was just mind-bogglingly bad. Can't have that lack of intellect in the Irish game.

Other than 25 points from Dmac off the bench, I don't see NZ winning this. We'll do well to keep it respectable.

On the brightside, this will be the last game we have to suffer under Foz.

This selection is Foster giving the finger to all of us who've suffered long enough under his watch. De Groot is a penalty magnet. Leister is slower than a Monday with a hangover....the Irish 8 will be licking their chops waiting to molest our scrum the first chance they get.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

This selection is Foster giving the finger to all of us who've suffered long enough under his watch. De Groot is a penalty magnet. Leister is slower than a Monday with a hangover....the Irish 8 will be licking their chops waiting to molest our scrum the first chance they get.

So who are all the players in this team that will still be available for selection next year that you think razor would not pick? And, more importantly, who do you think razor would pick instead?

Leicester will not be available next year but we already know the answer to whether razor would pick leicester. Leicester, of course, being one of razors favourite players, who he often says he just can't not pick and so finds a place in the team for him even if not in his preferred position.

 

[Leinster Fan]

A lot of people would say that only an idiot would hope for a different outcome on the 8th occasion after fairly definitive answers the first seven times you tried something, which doesn't reflect very well on the IQ of Irish nation. Much like every other time though (or at least since 2003) this time is going to be different! If nothing else, we seem to have convinced the rest of the world to buy our hype this time around, whereas usually it's just us getting excited on our own before another country better than us at rugby (or on one particularly depressing occasion, Wales) come along and crush our dreams.

To be fair there is a lot of actual reason for excitement this time, and (unsurprisingly) I am fully on board the hype train. We do genuinely have a really good squad, and a coach that seems to have a genuine idea of what it might take to genuinely push on the next level at these things. On paper, we should probably win this, which is still a bit mad to say against the All Blacks. There's an awful lot that can go wrong in practice obviously, especially the All Blacks backline which is a very scary when you look at it written down (and will be even scarier if they get the ball in broken play in the actual match.) It's a bit of a cliche at this stage, but they really can score out of very little and take the game away from you if you give them half a chance. The defensive performances against Scotland and SA are a big cause for optimism on this front though, even though this is a very different challenge. That all being said, I think if our pack can give us a consistent platform over the match, we'll outscore them most days, and I think there's a decent chance it plays out like that. With Ryan out, I think the locks are much of a muchness or slightly advantage NZ but the back row and front row are two areas I would feel we have an advantage in.

I think we've got off relatively lightly on the injury front and have avoided knocks to the players that we really couldn't afford to lose (Porter, Sexton, Ringrose and Keenan). That being said, Ryan is a real blow, and Hansen going off early would be a massive loss. Having watched highlights of a lot of our games over the last few years this week, it's really noticeable how crucial the first choice back three are to what we do (and how good they are as well, Keenan is obviously ridiculously good but I think our wingers get a bit underappreciated even by a lot of Irish fans, even undeniably one eyed ones like me). I love Jimmy but he's just not on the same level, although he would definitely do the job.

One thing that will be pretty key I think is how we approach early penalties (if we get them). For the last four years we've consistently favoured going to the corner over taking the points. Whether we persevere with that approach and how it goes if we do will be massive. The conventional wisdom says that in a knockout match you take the points on offer, but there are definite arguments against that as well. Overhauling how you approach the game because the stakes are now higher probably isn't the smartest move, and really backfired for Leinster in the 2022 European final when they started kicking penalties having barely done it all year. The lineout is also a factor, having very publicly wobbled a bit in recent months after being largely excellent for most of the cycle, but having Sheehan back is a huge factor on that front. I've no idea what we'll do, but if we do start kicking to the corner and we mess it up a few times it could get sticky if Will Jordan scores his inevitable try and we end up over a score down despite being mostly on top early. I'm reasonably confident that we're mentally resilient enough to handle both an All Blacks lead and a few early setbacks in their 22 though, and I think that the mentality Farrell has installed in the squad is a huge part of the reason we've come so far, although this is going to be the real test of that.

I really hope for my own sake that this game isn't close with 15 minutes to play, because I have no idea what would happen. We've been in close games in the final quarter a fair amount under Farrell and never seemed unable to cope with it. We have killed a lot of those games off by scoring a try to stretch the lead to two scores with about 15 minutes left, which is great but has me very nervous about what'll happen if we don't do that. To be fair, I think this team is pretty well equipped to see out a lead, and while I do have PDST from the last two European finals I think a slow Leinster v La Rochelle style into oblivion isn't a very likely prospect given the strengths and weaknesses of these teams. I do worry how we'll react if the All Blacks take the lead with less than 10 minutes left, not mentally but just if we'll have the ability to force a score late on. There are two big question marks on the bench on this front: Joe McCarthy (and the lineout generally) and Jack Crowley. They both deserve to be here but have extremely limited senior experience. How they get on is also big for Farrell, both of them have slightly been pet projects for him, hopefully we'll reap the rewards but if we need a score to win it's up in the air how they get on (Crowley does have a good bit of credit in the bank on this front after the URC win earlier this year, and also looked assured against the Boks after coming on with the game in the balance). It'll be interesting to see how early both come on, especially if the game is close. My big worry late in the game is the lineout, Kelleher throwing to Beirne and McCarthy would not be my dream combo if we have a crucial lineout with the clock in the red, especially if POM has also gone off. They wouldn't be picked if they weren't prepared for that eventuality though so just got to trust the coaches.

Overall, my gut says we should have enough but it also though that in 2011, 2015 and (particularly stupidly) in 2019. That being said a loss here would genuinely be much more devastating than any of those ones, there's a real sense of 'If not now, when?' The idea of another four years just seems awful, especially because the semi final if we make it will be an eminently winnable game (albeit against one of our historical bogeymen in Gatland or Argentina, too early to think about that though). Nothing to do but hope at this stage though, and if nothing else I'll enjoy the idea of a beatable New Zealand team while it lasts before Scott Robertson comes along and turns them back into the unbeatable rugby death robots we all know and fear. It's been a while since I posted a too-long pre match ramble on this forum, so this is probably a function of how much I really really want us to win this (not that it'll make any difference, if anything there's a negative correlation between my engagement here and the team's success).

Éire abú!

 

[O’Doyle Rules]

Just done my morning walk around L'Republique to get a coffee - off to Moulin later to soak it in!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

A lot of people would say that only an idiot would hope for a different outcome on the 8th occasion after fairly definitive answers the first seven times you tried something, which doesn't reflect very well on the IQ of Irish nation. Much like every other time though (or at least since 2003) this time is going to be different! If nothing else, we seem to have convinced the rest of the world to buy our hype this time around, whereas usually it's just us getting excited on our own before another country better than us at rugby (or on one particularly depressing occasion, Wales) come along and crush our dreams.

To be fair there is a lot of actual reason for excitement this time, and (unsurprisingly) I am fully on board the hype train. We do genuinely have a really good squad, and a coach that seems to have a genuine idea of what it might take to genuinely push on the next level at these things. On paper, we should probably win this, which is still a bit mad to say against the All Blacks. There's an awful lot that can go wrong in practice obviously, especially the All Blacks backline which is a very scary when you look at it written down (and will be even scarier if they get the ball in broken play in the actual match.) It's a bit of a cliche at this stage, but they really can score out of very little and take the game away from you if you give them half a chance. The defensive performances against Scotland and SA are a big cause for optimism on this front though, even though this is a very different challenge. That all being said, I think if our pack can give us a consistent platform over the match, we'll outscore them most days, and I think there's a decent chance it plays out like that. With Ryan out, I think the locks are much of a muchness or slightly advantage NZ but the back row and front row are two areas I would feel we have an advantage in.

I think we've got off relatively lightly on the injury front and have avoided knocks to the players that we really couldn't afford to lose (Porter, Sexton, Ringrose and Keenan). That being said, Ryan is a real blow, and Hansen going off early would be a massive loss. Having watched highlights of a lot of our games over the last few years this week, it's really noticeable how crucial the first choice back three are to what we do (and how good they are as well, Keenan is obviously ridiculously good but I think our wingers get a bit underappreciated even by a lot of Irish fans, even undeniably one eyed ones like me). I love Jimmy but he's just not on the same level, although he would definitely do the job.

One thing that will be pretty key I think is how we approach early penalties (if we get them). For the last four years we've consistently favoured going to the corner over taking the points. Whether we persevere with that approach and how it goes if we do will be massive. The conventional wisdom says that in a knockout match you take the points on offer, but there are definite arguments against that as well. Overhauling how you approach the game because the stakes are now higher probably isn't the smartest move, and really backfired for Leinster in the 2022 European final when they started kicking penalties having barely done it all year. The lineout is also a factor, having very publicly wobbled a bit in recent months after being largely excellent for most of the cycle, but having Sheehan back is a huge factor on that front. I've no idea what we'll do, but if we do start kicking to the corner and we mess it up a few times it could get sticky if Will Jordan scores his inevitable try and we end up over a score down despite being mostly on top early. I'm reasonably confident that we're mentally resilient enough to handle both an All Blacks lead and a few early setbacks in their 22 though, and I think that the mentality Farrell has installed in the squad is a huge part of the reason we've come so far, although this is going to be the real test of that.

I really hope for my own sake that this game isn't close with 15 minutes to play, because I have no idea what would happen. We've been in close games in the final quarter a fair amount under Farrell and never seemed unable to cope with it. We have killed a lot of those games off by scoring a try to stretch the lead to two scores with about 15 minutes left, which is great but has me very nervous about what'll happen if we don't do that. To be fair, I think this team is pretty well equipped to see out a lead, and while I do have PDST from the last two European finals I think a slow Leinster v La Rochelle style into oblivion isn't a very likely prospect given the strengths and weaknesses of these teams. I do worry how we'll react if the All Blacks take the lead with less than 10 minutes left, not mentally but just if we'll have the ability to force a score late on. There are two big question marks on the bench on this front: Joe McCarthy (and the lineout generally) and Jack Crowley. They both deserve to be here but have extremely limited senior experience. How they get on is also big for Farrell, both of them have slightly been pet projects for him, hopefully we'll reap the rewards but if we need a score to win it's up in the air how they get on (Crowley does have a good bit of credit in the bank on this front after the URC win earlier this year, and also looked assured against the Boks after coming on with the game in the balance). It'll be interesting to see how early both come on, especially if the game is close. My big worry late in the game is the lineout, Kelleher throwing to Beirne and McCarthy would not be my dream combo if we have a crucial lineout with the clock in the red, especially if POM has also gone off. They wouldn't be picked if they weren't prepared for that eventuality though so just got to trust the coaches.

Overall, my gut says we should have enough but it also though that in 2011, 2015 and (particularly stupidly) in 2019. That being said a loss here would genuinely be much more devastating than any of those ones, there's a real sense of 'If not now, when?' The idea of another four years just seems awful, especially because the semi final if we make it will be an eminently winnable game (albeit against one of our historical bogeymen in Gatland or Argentina, too early to think about that though). Nothing to do but hope at this stage though, and if nothing else I'll enjoy the idea of a beatable New Zealand team while it lasts before Scott Robertson comes along and turns them back into the unbeatable rugby death robots we all know and fear. It's been a while since I posted a too-long pre match ramble on this forum, so this is probably a function of how much I really really want us to win this (not that it'll make any difference, if anything there's a negative correlation between my engagement here and the team's success).

Éire abú!

It does feel different this time, I think.

Hell yeah brother.

 

[dirty harry]

I get why Irish fans think it feels different, and I'll be honest it does...

But I've had these conversations before, 2015 it felt different, I was living in Edinburgh, I travelled down to Bristol, met a group of 8 Irish friends who were all supremely confident.

They lodged at my place in Cardiff, they sang all night, then sang all game day, the 80k Irish fans in Cardiff were supremely confident, this is their time, their win, if they turn up at 75% they're through etc...

I was there when Ireland fans were confident again, after that Aussie win, and playing little old Wales there was no way on Earth Wales were beating Ireland that day. Massively outnumbered in Welly, I will always remember being told the only chance of winning was taken away when Joubert was named. Irelands golden generation had just won a GS, and were in contention for 6n that year...

So this may feel different but is it. Ireland have beaten big teams in the group before, theyve won their group before, theyve gone into quarters supremely confident before.

What Is actually different this time round? The NZ tour?

 

[Umaga's Witness]

A lot of people would say that only an idiot would hope for a different outcome on the 8th occasion after fairly definitive answers the first seven times you tried something, which doesn't reflect very well on the IQ of Irish nation. Much like every other time though (or at least since 2003) this time is going to be different! If nothing else, we seem to have convinced the rest of the world to buy our hype this time around, whereas usually it's just us getting excited on our own before another country better than us at rugby (or on one particularly depressing occasion, Wales) come along and crush our dreams.

To be fair there is a lot of actual reason for excitement this time, and (unsurprisingly) I am fully on board the hype train. We do genuinely have a really good squad, and a coach that seems to have a genuine idea of what it might take to genuinely push on the next level at these things. On paper, we should probably win this, which is still a bit mad to say against the All Blacks. There's an awful lot that can go wrong in practice obviously, especially the All Blacks backline which is a very scary when you look at it written down (and will be even scarier if they get the ball in broken play in the actual match.) It's a bit of a cliche at this stage, but they really can score out of very little and take the game away from you if you give them half a chance. The defensive performances against Scotland and SA are a big cause for optimism on this front though, even though this is a very different challenge. That all being said, I think if our pack can give us a consistent platform over the match, we'll outscore them most days, and I think there's a decent chance it plays out like that. With Ryan out, I think the locks are much of a muchness or slightly advantage NZ but the back row and front row are two areas I would feel we have an advantage in.

I think we've got off relatively lightly on the injury front and have avoided knocks to the players that we really couldn't afford to lose (Porter, Sexton, Ringrose and Keenan). That being said, Ryan is a real blow, and Hansen going off early would be a massive loss. Having watched highlights of a lot of our games over the last few years this week, it's really noticeable how crucial the first choice back three are to what we do (and how good they are as well, Keenan is obviously ridiculously good but I think our wingers get a bit underappreciated even by a lot of Irish fans, even undeniably one eyed ones like me). I love Jimmy but he's just not on the same level, although he would definitely do the job.

One thing that will be pretty key I think is how we approach early penalties (if we get them). For the last four years we've consistently favoured going to the corner over taking the points. Whether we persevere with that approach and how it goes if we do will be massive. The conventional wisdom says that in a knockout match you take the points on offer, but there are definite arguments against that as well. Overhauling how you approach the game because the stakes are now higher probably isn't the smartest move, and really backfired for Leinster in the 2022 European final when they started kicking penalties having barely done it all year. The lineout is also a factor, having very publicly wobbled a bit in recent months after being largely excellent for most of the cycle, but having Sheehan back is a huge factor on that front. I've no idea what we'll do, but if we do start kicking to the corner and we mess it up a few times it could get sticky if Will Jordan scores his inevitable try and we end up over a score down despite being mostly on top early. I'm reasonably confident that we're mentally resilient enough to handle both an All Blacks lead and a few early setbacks in their 22 though, and I think that the mentality Farrell has installed in the squad is a huge part of the reason we've come so far, although this is going to be the real test of that.

I really hope for my own sake that this game isn't close with 15 minutes to play, because I have no idea what would happen. We've been in close games in the final quarter a fair amount under Farrell and never seemed unable to cope with it. We have killed a lot of those games off by scoring a try to stretch the lead to two scores with about 15 minutes left, which is great but has me very nervous about what'll happen if we don't do that. To be fair, I think this team is pretty well equipped to see out a lead, and while I do have PDST from the last two European finals I think a slow Leinster v La Rochelle style into oblivion isn't a very likely prospect given the strengths and weaknesses of these teams. I do worry how we'll react if the All Blacks take the lead with less than 10 minutes left, not mentally but just if we'll have the ability to force a score late on. There are two big question marks on the bench on this front: Joe McCarthy (and the lineout generally) and Jack Crowley. They both deserve to be here but have extremely limited senior experience. How they get on is also big for Farrell, both of them have slightly been pet projects for him, hopefully we'll reap the rewards but if we need a score to win it's up in the air how they get on (Crowley does have a good bit of credit in the bank on this front after the URC win earlier this year, and also looked assured against the Boks after coming on with the game in the balance). It'll be interesting to see how early both come on, especially if the game is close. My big worry late in the game is the lineout, Kelleher throwing to Beirne and McCarthy would not be my dream combo if we have a crucial lineout with the clock in the red, especially if POM has also gone off. They wouldn't be picked if they weren't prepared for that eventuality though so just got to trust the coaches.

Overall, my gut says we should have enough but it also though that in 2011, 2015 and (particularly stupidly) in 2019. That being said a loss here would genuinely be much more devastating than any of those ones, there's a real sense of 'If not now, when?' The idea of another four years just seems awful, especially because the semi final if we make it will be an eminently winnable game (albeit against one of our historical bogeymen in Gatland or Argentina, too early to think about that though). Nothing to do but hope at this stage though, and if nothing else I'll enjoy the idea of a beatable New Zealand team while it lasts before Scott Robertson comes along and turns them back into the unbeatable rugby death robots we all know and fear. It's been a while since I posted a too-long pre match ramble on this forum, so this is probably a function of how much I really really want us to win this (not that it'll make any difference, if anything there's a negative correlation between my engagement here and the team's success).

Éire abú!

At the end of the day it's just one game, doesn't imply much. Means a lot perhaps, that's up to you. Personally I rate tours higher than world cups. Anything can happen in a one off match. You might lose even though you are better.

What Is actually different this time round? The NZ tour?

16 in a row? Consistent success against the top teams? Having won most games over NZ in recent times? Players who have had success and heart brake at international and club level?

I think it's different. Still, anything could happen. All blacks could win. There is a chance the all blacks will be in the right mindset for this one. Guys like mounga and leicester have stepped up in super rugby finals before.

 

[corny]

At the end of the day it's just one game, doesn't imply much. Means a lot perhaps, that's up to you. Personally I rate tours higher than world cups. Anything can happen in a one off match. You might lose even though you are better.

16 in a row? Consistent success against the top teams? Having won most games over NZ in recent times? Players who have had success and heart brake at international and club level?

I think it's different. Still, anything could happen. All blacks could win. There is a chance the all blacks will be in the right mindset for this one. Guys like mounga and leicester have stepped up in super rugby finals before.

This is it. Ireland could be the real deal and still lose. It's not a gimme or a game they'll have to choke to lose.

 

[O’Doyle Rules]

I get why Irish fans think it feels different, and I'll be honest it does...

But I've had these conversations before, 2015 it felt different, I was living in Edinburgh, I travelled down to Bristol, met a group of 8 Irish friends who were all supremely confident.

They lodged at my place in Cardiff, they sang all night, then sang all game day, the 80k Irish fans in Cardiff were supremely confident, this is their time, their win, if they turn up at 75% they're through etc...

I was there when Ireland fans were confident again, after that Aussie win, and playing little old Wales there was no way on Earth Wales were beating Ireland that day. Massively outnumbered in Welly, I will always remember being told the only chance of winning was taken away when Joubert was named. Irelands golden generation had just won a GS, and were in contention for 6n that year...

So this may feel different but is it. Ireland have beaten big teams in the group before, theyve won their group before, theyve gone into quarters supremely confident before.

What Is actually different this time round? The NZ tour?

Completely agree but it is fun to get excited every four years

 

[dirty harry]

At the end of the day it's just one game, doesn't imply much. Means a lot perhaps, that's up to you. Personally I rate tours higher than world cups. Anything can happen in a one off match. You might lose even though you are better.

16 in a row? Consistent success against the top teams? Having won most games over NZ in recent times? Players who have had success and heart brake at international and club level?

I think it's different. Still, anything could happen. All blacks could win. There is a chance the all blacks will be in the right mindset for this one. Guys like mounga and leicester have stepped up in super rugby finals before.

That's a very good point I overlooked, but isnt it 17 in a row now?

 

[dirty harry]

Completely agree but it is fun to get excited every four years

I have my fingers, toes, legs, arms, and shoelaces crossed dont get me wrong.

I'm outspoken that I want an all euro semi lineup!!!
Good luck my Irish brethren, I spent 3/ 4 years living in Dublin and Clare, I really have a soft spot for Irish rugby fans, they are the best!!!

 

[Umaga's Witness]

That's a very good point I overlooked, but isnt it 17 in a row now?

Ahh, Yea, it is.

 

[big ginger 8]

I get why Irish fans think it feels different, and I'll be honest it does...

But I've had these conversations before, 2015 it felt different, I was living in Edinburgh, I travelled down to Bristol, met a group of 8 Irish friends who were all supremely confident.

They lodged at my place in Cardiff, they sang all night, then sang all game day, the 80k Irish fans in Cardiff were supremely confident, this is their time, their win, if they turn up at 75% they're through etc...

I was there when Ireland fans were confident again, after that Aussie win, and playing little old Wales there was no way on Earth Wales were beating Ireland that day. Massively outnumbered in Welly, I will always remember being told the only chance of winning was taken away when Joubert was named. Irelands golden generation had just won a GS, and were in contention for 6n that year...

So this may feel different but is it. Ireland have beaten big teams in the group before, theyve won their group before, theyve gone into quarters supremely confident before.

What Is actually different this time round? The NZ tour?

Much more than the NZ tour as pointed out, also not missing a third of our starting lineup or making obviously stupid selection/tactical decisions from the outset helps.

It is definitely different this time. Whether it translates into the result we want is another question.

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

I like seeing the All Blacks lose so I hope Ireland wins. But Irish fans - especially the people on rugby podcasts and TV commentators - are the most arrogant, smug and confident people in the world. I would love to see them eating humble pie.

Their confidence about winning every WC is incredible given it's for a team that is historically rubbish at them.