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[RWC2019][Semi-Final 1] England vs. New Zealand (26/10/2019)

How are you still salty about Farrell this far into the tournament? Ford was excellent in the pool and good when he came on vs Aus, but the tactic to start Farrell clearly worked. You claim there is no obvious reason for not dropping Farrell, but if you've followed the development of the team at all over the last few years you should know that:

- Farrell is the Captain, dropping the Captain for a semi-final is not exactly best practice.
- He is the driving force behind the attacking strategy on the training pitch (along with Ford) and executing it on the pitch.
- He is the leader of the defensive line and the loudest voice/motivator/organizer whenever the team defends (you can literally hear him on the ref mic constantly).
- He is the first choice goal kicker and has been one of the world's best under pressure at international level and major finals (aside from when he took the head knock against Argentina).
- Ford has been good too, but he doesn't have the same presence as Farrell within this team, he cannot lead from the front in the same way and he will always be a bit of a liability in defense. He is a fantastic front-foot player and tactical kicker, which is why there is a great case for starting him alongside Farrell, but there is no strong argument for starting him INSTEAD of Farrell.

At this point of a world cup cycle, one would think that fans should get behind the team (and arguably its most pivotal figure) rather than suggest sweeping changes - that are simply never going to happen and would be terrible decisions - just to satisfy a long-held vendetta against Faz.

I'll leave you with a favourite quote of mine: A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

Agree with most of this post. Just not the point about Ford being a liability in defense which is a bit of a myth.

This tournament:

Ford 14 tackles 0 missed
Farrell 31 tackles, 11 missed

I know they've had different opposition and missed tackle stats are always a little bit subjective. But if you're calling Ford a bad defender then there aren't going to be many 10s who aren't, given he has one of the best defensive records of any 10 in the tournament.
 
Not sure who I am rooting for here. I'd be happy to see either in the finals (assuming we get past Wales of course).

With England I feel we have their number whether that is the case or not that will probably be the feeling for the whole of SA. I think they are full value for their #2 ranking BUT I feel SA specifically does not mind playing England. We play the same style relatively speaking, I just feel we are better suited to it.

With NZ I'd love us to take out the final against them or at least get the chance. Living in Cape Town I can just hear the Cape AB supporters dismissing a potential SA win saying "but you lost against 'us' in the pool".

I suppose NZ will come in as favorites but England certainly have a shot here I would think.
 
Not sure who I am rooting for here. I'd be happy to see either in the finals (assuming we get past Wales of course).

With England I feel we have their number whether that is the case or not that will probably be the feeling for the whole of SA. I think they are full value for their #2 ranking BUT I feel SA specifically does not mind playing England. We play the same style relatively speaking, I just feel we are better suited to it.

With NZ I'd love us to take out the final against them or at least get the chance. Living in Cape Town I can just hear the Cape AB supporters dismissing a potential SA win saying "but you lost against 'us' in the pool".

I suppose NZ will come in as favorites but England certainly have a shot here I would think.

As a Saffa don't you want NZ in the final? Would be very special as it would be the 100th meeting between the two.
 
I just realised Tom Curry is the same age as my younger brother.

Exceptional player, also Sam Underhill.
 
As a Saffa don't you want NZ in the final? Would be very special as it would be the 100th meeting between the two.

To be the best, we have to beat the best... So yeah, I'd prefer the AB's. Plus then we can brag for the next for years that SH is superior to NH. Plus we have never lost a WC final before and it would be a nice centenary match-up...
 
To be the best, we have to beat the best... So yeah, I'd prefer the AB's. Plus then we can brag for the next for years that SH is superior to NH. Plus we have never lost a WC final before and it would be a nice centenary match-up...

It's something almost written in the stars the 100th match up being the Bok and the AB's is in the RWC final, but obviously neither game is a foregone conclusion and both Wales and England have very real chances to spoil that party, but I really hope they don't, as the resulting fixture is mouth wateringly epic!!
 
England shouldn't fear NZ, it will be a tough game but I think they are good enough to win. However despite the sexy grubber Slade hasn't looked too comfortable in the 13 shirt and Daly is rather big weak link defensively at 15.
 
Agree with most of this post. Just not the point about Ford being a liability in defense which is a bit of a myth.

This tournament:

Ford 14 tackles 0 missed
Farrell 31 tackles, 11 missed

I know they've had different opposition and missed tackle stats are always a little bit subjective. But if you're calling Ford a bad defender then there aren't going to be many 10s who aren't, given he has one of the best defensive records of any 10 in the tournament.

Not trying to hate on Ford as I think he's been great this tournament. He is also a brave defender which is more than can be said for one or two of our other backs. However, tackle completion is a strangely misleading statistic, particularly in the 10-12 channel, given the prevalence of rush/blitz defenses. Farrell's job is often to turn a defender back inside or disrupt the passing flow by blitzing out, which whilst effective, does lead to more "missed tackles". It's not like he is conceding line breaks as a result. Ford does not play this role, I'd assume because he is too small and cannot intimidate/disrupt players physically (Faf somehow manages to do this as a hobbit, but he's a freak).

On the flip side, whilst Ford rarely ever misses tackles, what he does do is cling on up high and concede significant yards until someone can help him. This isn't completely terrible as long as he prevents the offload, but it does guarantee opposition teams some pretty easy momentum provided they can effectively target him - something England have been exceptional at preventing lately by leveraging the heat seeking missile that is Underhill. Where Ford can be really damaging to us is if players can take him on physically, get behind the defensive line and then offload. I should stress that this hasn't been a problem at international level for a couple of years now, but we are about to play the single best team at doing this in the world. Overall, I think Ford more than deserves his place, his attacking flair and rugby-smarts definitely outweigh his weaknesses. However, I do get nervous thinking about SBW running down Ford's throat with 20 to play and the game on the line, but that's all part of the fun I guess!
 
Agree with most of this post. Just not the point about Ford being a liability in defense which is a bit of a myth.

This tournament:

Ford 14 tackles 0 missed
Farrell 31 tackles, 11 missed

I know they've had different opposition and missed tackle stats are always a little bit subjective. But if you're calling Ford a bad defender then there aren't going to be many 10s who aren't, given he has one of the best defensive records of any 10 in the tournament.

This, I keep asking for evidence where Ford has been a significant liability in defence and it is never produced. It quite simply was that one game against Wasps where Hughes ran over him a few times, there are no other instances I can think of where he performed poorly at all. Yeah he will concede ground a bit but plenty of others do as well without getting criticised for it.

As for Farrell shooting out the line missing tackles, that's all well an good until he shoots out, the players still make ground and now he is miles offside for the next phase and totally absent in defence for that period.
 
I think Ford's lack of pace coupled with his lack of physicality keeps him behind Farrell, who's no sprinter but quicker than Ford. Farrell is a better defender because of it and draws the defence to himself more despite having less of a break.

There was one point in the Argentina game where the biggest dog leg you'd like opened up for Ford, he spotted it and ran but wasn't quick enough to exploit it and not strong enough to retain the ball when hit by a backrow. It was one of the first times I've ever seen him try to exploit the many doglegs defences leave for him outside the 22, it also reminded me why Farrell is the main man between the two. Ford is a wonderful footballer, but he always reminds me of Gatland, I think, who said something along the lines of skill needing to be coupled with power or pace to be truly great. Ford just isn't a good enough athlete.
 
I think Ford's lack of pace coupled with his lack of physicality keeps him behind Farrell, who's no sprinter but quicker than Ford. Farrell is a better defender because of it and draws the defence to himself more despite having less of a break.

There was one point in the Argentina game where the biggest dog leg you'd like opened up for Ford, he spotted it and ran but wasn't quick enough to exploit it and not strong enough to retain the ball when hit by a backrow. It was one of the first times I've ever seen him try to exploit the many doglegs defences leave for him outside the 22, it also reminded me why Farrell is the main man between the two. Ford is a wonderful footballer, but he always reminds me of Gatland, I think, who said something along the lines of skill needing to be coupled with power or pace to be truly great. Ford just isn't a good enough athlete.

Ford lack of pace?

Are you being serious?
 
I'm generally not overly sentimental. We've played NZ soo much of late. At least with the introduction of Argentina to the RC its gone down from 3/y to only the 2.

Really? But none of those games are a World Cup final. Not all Tests are equal. It would be like Real Madrid v Barcelona in the CL (yet to happen), Nadal v Federer in the Wimbledon final, Ali v Frazier for the world ***le. The rugby championship is one thing to play for, but the crown of world champion is quite another.
 
Nah he is quick.

@3:22


Certainly quicker than Farrell.


@2:03

Fair, I'm wrong there. I'd still say he's nowhere near quick enough at international level to make up for him being weak af. Defences do ignore him on the reg.

Edit: it's not elite speed by any metric, which is what I meant in the original post but worded poorly.
 
Is this still going on?

I thought it all finished 2 weeks ago? :cool:
 
Fair, I'm wrong there. I'd still say he's nowhere near quick enough at international level to make up for him being weak af. Defences do ignore him on the reg.

Edit: it's not elite speed by any metric, which is what I meant in the original post but worded poorly.

Don't disagree with him not being elite speed.
Just took the Farrell being faster than him as a red flag, since I never see Faz make a break.
 

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