RWC: New Zealand - Tonga (09-09-2011, 20:30)

[Larksea]

I don't think that you can use that Bok game to prove anything other than Dagg is superior to Mills.

I think anyone who comes to that conclusion isn't looking at the big picture. I am very impressed by Dagg and no doubt he is a better runner than Mills but that's not the only thing to consider. I know I keep pointing it out but as good as Daggs running game was nothing came from his breaks because he turned the ball over when the defense caught up with him most of the time. Even if he had put a kick in at the end of some of those breaks to gain territory the All Blacks would have profited a lot more. He conceded maybe as many as 6 turnovers in that game. All those running meters are great but if you give the ball away at the end of it then it's almost for nothing. Kinda the complete opposite of what Mills would do. No Mills wouldn't break the line as much but he still has the ability and speed to do it but when Mills has the ball he is always looking to setup his wingers and if he goes to contact he always makes sure his team stays in possession.

To me Dagg looks like THE MAN for the 22 jersey this world cup and to take over from Mills next season. But the safety, experience and ability to link with others that Mills offers is critical right now.

As far as the wingers go the only thing that's for sure is that neither 11 or 14 have been claimed. kahui and Toeava get their chance now and Zac & Jane will get their chance next game then I think the better of those guys will get the nod for the run to the finals. Personally I'd like to see Kahui in 11 and jane in 14. Going to be hard to trust Zac at 11 after he made some mistakes against Aussie.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Really? Sonny Bill Williams on the wing?

 

[Darwin]

Bad choice from Isitolo Maka at centres. Opting for defensive minded players is a mistake. He already put his players in a defensive spirit, but the must try to keep the ball at destroy NZers.
The forwards are those I said earlier except for Filise and Hehea. The 9-10 Taniela Moa Kurth Morath will worth the look. I'm very surprised to not see Fetu'u Vainikolo in the 22. The bench is really strong. Tonga won't fall before the end of the game.
The head to head Morath-Carter will be really important to see another Samoa-Australia as well as the capacity of the referee to be impartial.

Soane Tonga'uiha will humble Owen Franks. I think the Tongan back row is better than NZ one.

I don't think anyone has ever humbled Owen Franks - I don't think Tonga'uniha is going to either. I expect the AB's to have the edge at scrum time. Likewise the Tongan back row is nowhere near as good as the AB's trio - in fact I think Tonga's lack of a genuine openside flanker is weakness in their team. Maka used to play there in his earlier days, but he certainly doesn't have an openside flankers game these days. The Tongan loose-forward trio basically consists of 3 ball-runners, rather than a balanced trio like the AB's - because of this I expect the AB's to completely dominate at the breakdown.

Really surprised to see Filise at tighthead for Tonga. I've never really rated him (though I haven't seen him play for a few years) - I would have expected Kisi Pulu or Halani Aulika (a poor scrimmager, but great around the field) at 3 rather than Filise. I probably would have found a spot on the bench for Aulika, as he we would be a valuable impact player (alongside Taumalolo). An interesting mid-field / outside back combination too - it looks like they have gone for more reliable (Mailei, Hufanga) players rather than the more unpredictable (and less reliable) players such as Fatafehi and Vainakolo.

Looking at the two teams I expect the AB's will be too good. I'm hoping to see a few of the bench players, especially Boric and Slade, get 20-30 mins of gametime. Overall I'm picking the AB's to win by about 50 points.

 

[JW.]

If Tonga'uiha would have an equal scrum behind and besides him he would take Franks down. I don't rate him very high in the scrums at all.

 

[Darwin]

If Tonga'uiha would have an equal scrum behind and besides him he would take Franks down. I don't rate him very high in the scrums at all.

You'd be one of the only ones. Owen Franks is easily the best scrummaging prop in New Zealand - I would suggest he would probably be one of the best scrummaging props in the world.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I rate Franks now as well - Didn't particularly like him last year (remember being unimpressed in the AIs) but he's looked good in the Super XV and then through the 3N as well

Tonga have a strong pack though, so it'll be a good battle up front

 

[JW.]

Better than Mass/Domingo/Jones/Jenkins/Cole/Stevens/Sheridan/Steenkamp/Tonga'uiha/Roncero/Scelzo/Wilson/Healy/Ross/Castrogiovanni/Beast and Duplessis? A few props I would rate higher at scrumtime, I know I didn't pay any attention to what side they play on sorry.

I'd agree he's a good prop and does very well in open play/rucks but I don't rate him very high as a scrummager. Seen him play in the S15 and he did put alot of work in around the field, good work rate. And he would be in my top.10 props. I also like his training videos +1 for him on those .

 

[Darwin]

I rate Franks now as well - Didn't particularly like him last year (remember being unimpressed in the AIs) but he's looked good in the Super XV and then through the 3N as well

Tonga have a strong pack though, so it'll be a good battle up front

I don't think Owen Franks was too bad during last year AI's - the AB's scrum wasn't that impressive, but strangely it was the AB's loosehead side (Tony Woodcock) that seemed to be going backwards.

I agree that it will be a good battle up front. I'm really looking forward to seeing how Tonga'uihau goes; he was a always a below average scrummager when he was in New Zealand, but according to all reports he's developed into a top class scrummager. I think Filise is a weakness in Tonga's front row, though Tony Woodcock isn't exactly in the best form to exploit this.

Better than Mass/Domingo/Jones/Jenkins/Cole/Stevens/Sheridan/Steenkamp/Tonga'uiha/Roncero/Scelzo/Wilson/Healy/Ross/Castrogiovanni/Beast and Duplessis? A few props I would rate higher at scrumtime, I know I didn't pay any attention to what side they play on sorry.

I'd agree he's a good prop and does very well in open play/rucks but I don't rate him very high as a scrummager. Seen him play in the S15 and he did put alot of work in around the field, good work rate. And he would be in my top.10 props. I also like his training videos +1 for him on those .

Can't comment on most of the Northern Hemisphere based props (can't say I remember Healy being particularly good at scrummaging though!), but he is a much better scrummager than the Mtawarira, Steenkamp (though they are both a looseheads) and du Plessis. I'd say he is easily the best scrummaging prop of the Tri-nations teams in my opinion (the AB's/Crusaders scrum hasn't been bettered against any Tri-nations opposition, and has usually dominated, whenever he has been playing...). He is very strong around the field, but he more than does his job at scrum time too.

 

[Muzzy]

Tonga Team to Play All Blacks

1.Soane Tonga'uiha
2.Aleki Lutui
3.Taufa'ao Filise
4.Paino Hehea
5.Joe Tuineau
6.Sione Kalamafoni
7.Finau Maka
8.Viliami Ma'afu
9.Taniela Moa
10.Kurt Morath
11.Siale Piutau
12.Andrew Mailei
13.Suka Hufanga
14.Viliame Iongi
15.Vunga Lilo
Reserves
16.Ephraim Taukafa
17.Sona Taumalolo
18.Kisi Pulu
19.Sione Timani
20.Samiu Vahafolau
21.Samsoni Fisilau
22.Alipate Fatafehi

Interesting backline playing 3 centres Tonga have opted for the more Defence Reliable centres
in Mailei and Hufanga rather then more attacking combination in Piutau and Fatafehi.
Foward Pack looks top notch though
Good Luck

man i can't believe they chose Filise over Taumalolo, Filise is a terrible scrummager and he must be so old by now. The backline is interesting, i hope leaving Fatafehi out doesn't come back to bite them, maybe they're just resting these players for the other games

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Owen Franks was too bad during last year AI's - the AB's scrum wasn't that impressive, but strangely it was the AB's loosehead side (Tony Woodcock) that seemed to be going backwards.

Very true - I remember Woodcock getting done over by Dan Cole
However I do remember the ABs scrum looking much sturdier with John Afoa on instead of Franks - could've just been Afoa having a great tour (I remember he was on cracking form)

 

[Darwin]

Very true - I remember Woodcock getting done over by Dan Cole
However I do remember the ABs scrum looking much sturdier with John Afoa on instead of Franks - could've just been Afoa having a great tour (I remember he was on cracking form)

Yeah the scrum did seem to improve when Afoa came on, which was strange, as Afoa is not actually a very good scrummager!

I remember this in both the England and Wales match - it could be simply down to Afoa being fresher, but I think it had a lot to do with the fact that Anthony Boric replaced Sam Whitelock at about the same time. Whitelock is ok in the scrum, but Boric is regarded very highly as a scrummaging lock (only behind Brad Thorn in terms on NZ locks). When he came on, Woodcocks side was no longer going backwards, so the scrum in general looked 100% better (which made Afoa look good!).

 

[james5000]

I think anyone who comes to that conclusion isn't looking at the big picture. I am very impressed by Dagg and no doubt he is a better runner than Mills but that's not the only thing to consider. I know I keep pointing it out but as good as Daggs running game was nothing came from his breaks because he turned the ball over when the defense caught up with him most of the time. Even if he had put a kick in at the end of some of those breaks to gain territory the All Blacks would have profited a lot more. He conceded maybe as many as 6 turnovers in that game. All those running meters are great but if you give the ball away at the end of it then it's almost for nothing. Kinda the complete opposite of what Mills would do. No Mills wouldn't break the line as much but he still has the ability and speed to do it but when Mills has the ball he is always looking to setup his wingers and if he goes to contact he always makes sure his team stays in possession.

To me Dagg looks like THE MAN for the 22 jersey this world cup and to take over from Mills next season. But the safety, experience and ability to link with others that Mills offers is critical right now.

As far as the wingers go the only thing that's for sure is that neither 11 or 14 have been claimed. kahui and Toeava get their chance now and Zac & Jane will get their chance next game then I think the better of those guys will get the nod for the run to the finals. Personally I'd like to see Kahui in 11 and jane in 14. Going to be hard to trust Zac at 11 after he made some mistakes against Aussie.

We are definitely going to disagree on this topic i think.

In terms of that Bok game, it only enhances Daggs chances imo.

He had hardly played any rugby in weeks, he broke the line many times he was very good.
I don't recall him turning it over as many as 6 times, may be you are right about that i don't know. Even if he did, it is as much as his supporting teams fault as it was his.
It was a team lacking combination's, pretty experimental. If he played more often with these players they would instinctively learn to follow him because he makes so many breaks.

It doesn't really matter though I believe that no matter how good Dagg is he wont be starting in the major games. Henry loves Mill's, they have a close relationship, a bit too close i reckon.

 

[AfakasiAssasin]

Tonga Team to Play All Blacks

1.Soane Tonga'uiha
2.Aleki Lutui
3.Taufa'ao Filise
4.Paino Hehea
5.Joe Tuineau
6.Sione Kalamafoni
7.Finau Maka
8.Viliami Ma'afu
9.Taniela Moa
10.Kurt Morath
11.Siale Piutau
12.Andrew Mailei
13.Suka Hufanga
14.Viliame Iongi
15.Vunga Lilo
Reserves
16.Ephraim Taukafa
17.Sona Taumalolo
18.Kisi Pulu
19.Sione Timani
20.Samiu Vahafolau
21.Samsoni Fisilau
22.Alipate Fatafehi

Interesting backline playing 3 centres Tonga have opted for the more Defence Reliable centres
in Mailei and Hufanga rather then more attacking combination in Piutau and Fatafehi.
Foward Pack looks top notch though
Good Luck

Not their first choice midfield, as you said looks more defensive than offensive with Mailei and Hufanga rather than Fatafehi and Piutau with Vainikolo on the wing being my first choice back line. First choice tight head Kisi Pulu is starting on the bench with Taufa'ao Filise starting (could be worse atleast its not Lea'aetoa). Sione Kalamafoni getting the start over Vahafolau I think is a good move as I think he is probably the most underrated player in the Tongan lineup and has great workrate, probably moreso than Maka and Vahafolau. I think and hope that this Tongan team can put on a stirring performance and put up a good fight against the All Blacks that us islanders can be proud of.

 

[ranger]

Better than Mass/Domingo/Jones/Jenkins/Cole/Stevens/Sheridan/Steenkamp/Tonga'uiha/Roncero/Scelzo/Wilson/Healy/Ross/Castrogiovanni/Beast and Duplessis? A few props I would rate higher at scrumtime, I know I didn't pay any attention to what side they play on sorry.

I'd agree he's a good prop and does very well in open play/rucks but I don't rate him very high as a scrummager. Seen him play in the S15 and he did put alot of work in around the field, good work rate. And he would be in my top.10 props. I also like his training videos +1 for him on those .

Owen Franks is one of, if not the best scrummaging prop in the world. Most of the guys you mentioned don't deserve to be in the same conversation as Franks, including (and especially) Tonga'uiha.

I think people often make the mistake of watching Ben Franks and drawing conclusions from that. Ben is a good prop, Owen is an absolute beast.
You have him completely wrong, he is an out and out scrum monster that has constantly been told that he needs to work harder in open play, not the other way around. Honestly people.. mind boggling.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why single out Tonga'uiha?
He's a very good scrummager

Healy, Sheridan, Beast - they're the guys you should've said "especially" to!

 

[donmcdazzle]

Why single out Tonga'uiha?
He's a very good scrummager

Healy, Sheridan, Beast - they're the guys you should've said "especially" to!

That's the guy someone said would demo Franks in the upcoming game.

 

[JW.]

I've formed my opinion on what I've seen from him a little bit of S15 and some games for the AB's. You have obviously seen him play more but have you seen the likes of Mas/Jones/Jenkins etc. play alot?

If only there was a tournament coming up that could settle this debate . If the AB's scrum and Owen hold up against the French pack I shall take my words back.

Btw Tonga'uiha might not be the most technical prop and does most of it on raw power, but he was an animal for Saints this year and their pack dominated everybody. Saw him slip then get driven back and then lift himself + other prop up and drive them back + he is insane in the loose. And domesticly I don't think a prop can get tested more severaly than in the Premiership?

@Olly Not a fan of Sheridan or just not impressed by him? Why?

 

[Larksea]

Owen Franks is dam good in the scrum, I don't remember him ever having a bad game in that area for the AB's. Some times the AB's scrum starts slow but over time they get stronger as the opposition pack gets worn down and most of the time end up the stronger scrum. The simple fact Owen has what 24 test caps and he's only 23? Is pretty awesome in a position where players only really get to their peak late 20's early 30's. With that in mind it's safe to say owen could go down as one of NZ's best ever props. He could end up owning the #3 jersey for the next 8 years or so.

Afoa has impressed me off the bench for the all blacks over the last couple seasons. A number of times I've seen him come on to tight head and the scrum has been very solid. I don't think his scrum is as good as Owen or Ben Franks though.

 

[Bail]

Tonga'uiha fight is going to be the NH fight. SH will once more said "OMG, why NH players are so strong in setpieces" when Tonga'uiha will rape Franks (because this is what will happen). In SH, it's always the same song, you're unable to understand that competition make players better and not your national rigid system that North Korea can carry. Tonga'uiha was made by Europe, he became (a verb maybe you still don't understand) the best prop in the world only thanks to a free transaction club system. NH is proud to see Tonga'uiha representing his nation at the World Cup.
All this Tonga team was built in Europe. NH is proud to allow Tonga playing with his best ever team.

 

[AfakasiAssasin]

Tonga'uiha fight is going to be the NH fight. SH will once more said "OMG, why NH players are so strong in setpieces" when Tonga'uiha will rape Franks (because this is what will happen). In SH, it's always the same song, you're unable to understand that competition make players better and not your national rigid system that North Korea can carry. Tonga'uiha was made by Europe, he became (a verb maybe you still don't understand) the best prop in the world only thanks to a free transaction club system. NH is proud to see Tonga'uiha representing his nation at the World Cup.
All this Tonga team was built in Europe. NH is proud to allow Tonga playing with his best ever team.

...ummm yeah...ok...how the hell did North Korea get brought into this?