RWC: New Zealand - Tonga (09-09-2011, 20:30)

[Bail]

If you still doubt about Owen Franks demolition, remember that Nicolas Mas was demolished by Tonga'uiha with George Clancy at referee...

 

[Darwin]

Tonga'uiha fight is going to be the NH fight. SH will once more said "OMG, why NH players are so strong in setpieces" when Tonga'uiha will rape Franks (because this is what will happen). In SH, it's always the same song, you're unable to understand that competition make players better and not your national rigid system that North Korea can carry. Tonga'uiha was made by Europe, he became (a verb maybe you still don't understand) the best prop in the world only thanks to a free transaction club system. NH is proud to see Tonga'uiha representing his nation at the World Cup.
All this Tonga team was built in Europe. NH is proud to allow Tonga playing with his best ever team.

I really can't work out if you are just trolling, or you just haven't actually seen Owen Franks play.... <_<

I don't think anyone in NZ has ever said "OMG, why NH players are so strong in setpieces" - every time we play Northern Hemisphere team we get told we are going to get dominated at scrum time, yet the vast majority of the time the AB's have dominant scrum (a classic example was last time we played France, when the AB's got a push-over try on France's own feed!). I'm sure we will be told that same thing when we play France in pool, and everyone is going to be shocked when the France scrum starts going backwards....

 

[ranger]

I've formed my opinion on what I've seen from him a little bit of S15 and some games for the AB's. You have obviously seen him play more but have you seen the likes of Mas/Jones/Jenkins etc. play alot?

Yes. In New Zealand we have this wonderful thing called "the rugby channel".

If only there was a tournament coming up that could settle this debate . If the AB's scrum and Owen hold up against the French pack I shall take my words back.

When was the last time they didn't "Hold up" against the French? In '04 the Hayman lead All Blacks savaged the French scrum to such an extent that both props (Marconnet and De Villiers i think) feigned injuries to force uncontested scrums. Everyone sort of went quiet about the French scrum dominance for a few minutes, then it inexplicably fired up again and NZ were said to have the weaker scrum, Hayman wasnt that great etc..

In the most recent meeting in 09, the All Blacks scored a push over try against the French (against the feed may i add). People kept quiet about the All Blacks weak scrummaging props for a while. Now you're telling me that Franks has to prove himself against this French 'benchmark' again?

Peoples minds work in odd ways.

Btw Tonga'uiha might not be the most technical prop and does most of it on raw power, but he was an animal for Saints this year and their pack dominated everybody. Saw him slip then get driven back and then lift himself + other prop up and drive them back + he is insane in the loose. And domesticly I don't think a prop can get tested more severaly than in the Premiership?

Tonga'uiha has poor technique, but Courtney Lawes allows him to look good. Judge on the individual, not the pack. If you could get by on raw power alone Sheridan would be the best prop on the planet..

@Olly Not a fan of Sheridan or just not impressed by him? Why?

I can answer that: All muscle, no technique, good workrate around the field however. Pretty much the guy you think Franks is.

Tonga'uiha fight is going to be the NH fight. SH will once more said "OMG, why NH players are so strong in setpieces" when Tonga'uiha will rape Franks (because this is what will happen). In SH, it's always the same song, you're unable to understand that competition make players better and not your national rigid system that North Korea can carry. Tonga'uiha was made by Europe, he became (a verb maybe you still don't understand) the best prop in the world only thanks to a free transaction club system. NH is proud to see Tonga'uiha representing his nation at the World Cup.
All this Tonga team was built in Europe. NH is proud to allow Tonga playing with his best ever team.

...What?

The combination of poor english and crazy combines to form a cluster tornado of 'wtf'

 

[Amobokoboko]

Should be a very good game but NZ is a bit too strong for tonga.

 

[Steveskiez7]

Should be a very good game but NZ is a bit too strong for tonga.

a bit?

 

[Thingimubob]

a bit?

Just a tad.

 

[TNT88]

What are the Tongan centres like? (Mailei/Hufanga)

Will they put some big hits on Nonu and SBW? Or are they more of the attacking type players?

 

[JW.]

When was the last time they didn't "Hold up" against the French? In '04 the Hayman lead All Blacks savaged the French scrum to such an extent that both props (Marconnet and De Villiers i think) feigned injuries to force uncontested scrums. Everyone sort of went quiet about the French scrum dominance for a few minutes, then it inexplicably fired up again and NZ were said to have the weaker scrum, Hayman wasnt that great etc..

In the most recent meeting in 09, the All Blacks scored a push over try against the French (against the feed may i add). People kept quiet about the All Blacks weak scrummaging props for a while. Now you're telling me that Franks has to prove himself against this French 'benchmark' again?

Tonga'uiha has poor technique, but Courtney Lawes allows him to look good. Judge on the individual, not the pack. If you could get by on raw power alone Sheridan would be the best prop on the planet..

I'd say its a pretty good benchmark? France have a solid pack (imo the strongest pack after England,SA when in form) and if you hold up/beat them you have one strong scrum and have proven yourself? Hasen't every player got to prove himself?

I wouldn't say his technique was poor he just lacks it. And I wouldn't say Lawes is the best scrummaging lock either, + he has D.Hartley next to him someone who is not known to be a very strong scrummaging hooker. Overall the man is a beast and performs, if he can do the same in a weaker pack(Tonga) I doubt but we shall see. I'd rate Sheridan as one of the better props, I'll get flamed but when I've seen him play he has always delivered the goods.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone else that'd say Sheridan is one of the worlds best scrummaging props - even Sale fans

Ranger took the words right out of my mouth (as Meatloaf once sang), Sheridan is good when he can use his size and strength to bully the opposition tighthead, but stick him against someone with some know-how, like Adam Jones, and he's going down/backwards

 

[UilamOsa]

What are the Tongan centres like? (Mailei/Hufanga)

Will they put some big hits on Nonu and SBW? Or are they more of the attacking type players?

Haven't seen too much of Hufanga, but Mailei is a no frills centre, he's got big hits legal or illegal in him but he's usually rock solid. Hasn't got a great boot if they need to get out of trouble - but for reason, i don't know why - but I don't think this game will be about territorial kicking.

 

[ranger]

I'd say its a pretty good benchmark? France have a solid pack (imo the strongest pack after England,SA when in form) and if you hold up/beat them you have one strong scrum and have proven yourself? Hasen't every player got to prove himself?

Well, Franks has been punishing all comers for quite a while and has established himself as the best prop in New Zealand by a country mile. I would say he has proven himself already (He was subbed on in 09, he certainly held up his end then).. Also, as i have mentioned, in every meeting NZ has with France the latter generally comes out on top in the scrummaging department. Why then do you rate the French pack higher? Where would you rank NZ in the scrummaging department?

I wouldn't say his technique was poor he just lacks it. And I wouldn't say Lawes is the best scrummaging lock either, + he has D.Hartley next to him someone who is not known to be a very strong scrummaging hooker. Overall the man is a beast and performs, if he can do the same in a weaker pack(Tonga) I doubt but we shall see. I'd rate Sheridan as one of the better props, I'll get flamed but when I've seen him play he has always delivered the goods.

Poor technique and lacking technique is the same thing isn't it? My assessment of Lawes is based on a best estimation equation. You have a prop lacking technique flopping into contact and winning, either he is hercules and he is strong enough on his own to disregard technique entirely; or the 5 guys behind him are very strong. Then you see the lock directly behind him is 6'7 of raw tattooed muscle. Its not too distant of a conclusion to guess that he might have an influence in the matter.

Also, Sheridan? Really? he has bright spots to his game, but scrummaging isn't one of them.

 

[187]

...ummm yeah...ok...how the hell did North Korea get brought into this?

Yeah WTF was he going on about?! Haha fresh guy.

 

[Bail]

I really can't work out if you are just trolling, or you just haven't actually seen Owen Franks play.... <_<

I don't think anyone in NZ has ever said "OMG, why NH players are so strong in setpieces" - every time we play Northern Hemisphere team we get told we are going to get dominated at scrum time, yet the vast majority of the time the AB's have dominant scrum (a classic example was last time we played France, when the AB's got a push-over try on France's own feed!). I'm sure we will be told that same thing when we play France in pool, and everyone is going to be shocked when the France scrum starts going backwards....

So, you still don't understand that every four years, NZ lost all the advantage they had built in their conservative centralized system because all other teams regroup during three months, because they reunite players who LEARN from their different clubs which are thinking not in the same way, because they reunite players who KNOW what a stiff competition means. You still don't understand THIS ???

 

[Sneaki]

I can't wait for this game!! Just one more sleep to go...

Also I find myself laughing everytime I see the name Alipate Fatafehi now lol, reminds me of the SKY ad with Grant Fox trying to remember it .

 

[Darwin]

So, you still don't understand that every four years, NZ lost all the advantage they had built in their conservative centralized system because all other teams regroup during three months, because they reunite players who LEARN from their different clubs which are thinking not in the same way, because they reunite players who KNOW what a stiff competition means. You still don't understand THIS ???

I have truly have no idea what you are talking about I thought we were discussing Owen Franks scrummaging ability, yet you somehow got sidetracked and started talking about North Korea and some conservative centralized system..... truly bizarre. Do you even know who Owen Franks is (I'm starting to suspect not..), or do you simply believe that since he comes from an inferior Southern Hemisphere competition he will be no match for someone from a mighty Northern Hemisphere competition?

 

[AfakasiAssasin]

What are the Tongan centres like? (Mailei/Hufanga)

Will they put some big hits on Nonu and SBW? Or are they more of the attacking type players?

Andrew Mailei defensively is pretty solid. He has never stood out offensively for me so they probably incuded him to try and shut down Sonny Bill.
Suka Hufanga is I think pretty underrated player. He played well in the last RWC for Tonga and is a hard runner with the ball to pull down. Although they are not the quickest centre pairing around and lack the flair of their All Black counterparts, from what I gather they are defensively pretty solid.

 

[UilamOsa]

So, you still don't understand that every four years, NZ lost all the advantage they had built in their conservative centralized system because all other teams regroup during three months, because they reunite players who LEARN from their different clubs which are thinking not in the same way, because they reunite players who KNOW what a stiff competition means. You still don't understand THIS ???

That's debatable, but that's also a pretty weak argument. No All Blacks loss can directly attributed to a reversing scrum.

Now Australia on other hand...well, that's another matter.

Then you have the South Africans and they had their way with most of the teams during their RWC win.

Also for scrumming - as much as referees, interpretations, opponents, players themselves have an influence - the conditions also play apart. And it's home turf for Franks.


Tonga will shake the AB's.

But the Points will go the AB's in everything.

 

[JW.]

I have truly have no idea what you are talking about I thought we were discussing Owen Franks scrummaging ability, yet you somehow got sidetracked and started talking about North Korea and some conservative centralized system..... truly bizarre. Do you even know who Owen Franks is (I'm starting to suspect not..), or do you simply believe that since he comes from an inferior Southern Hemisphere competition he will be no match for someone from a mighty Northern Hemisphere competition?

Finally..

But yeh the North korean thing? Conservative centralized system? Haven't got a clue.

 

[AfakasiAssasin]

Yeah WTF was he going on about?! Haha fresh guy.

hell FOB aye hahaha

 

[psychic duck]

Taniela Moa showing his passion for Tonga!!!