Rugby 2012 - Kicking Improvement Suggestions

[ranger]

Well, honestly you'd be surprised how easy it is to read exactly where everyone is on side-on view. A certain number of people must agree with me on that, as it was chosen as the default view on Jonah Lomu Rugby, Rugby '05, '06 & '08 and World Championship Rugby. I'm not sure about Rugby Challenge '06, but might boot that up later to have a look again.

After a short amount of time it becomes very easy to tell how deep each player is in the view of the field. Seriously I'm watching one of my friends play in the Super 14 we've set-up and are playing through. We have absolutely no problem playing the view at all. He's up 21-0 against the Brumbies with the Cats going into the half time break on Elite. We organised a tournament for TRF members in Wellington which people travelled from different parts of the country to play in and the view EVERYONE played was side-on.

Seriously I do think that some people do have a problem with their depth perception in this kind of game and must therefore need end-on view.

That's fine though I'm certainly not saying they should get rid of end-on. It's obviously some peoples choice, but I'm not arrogant enough to feel that it's not as over the years I've seen hundreds of people talking about it on here and I can plainly tell there's a pretty even split of people who play each view.

I used to play side-on myself seen as it was the default, i played with it for the entire 04 and 05 games so i know the ins and outs of the system. I just found it ridiculously irritating. I know you can see where the gaps are currently but currently the gaps are ridiculously huge. What i have been calling for is the gaps to become subtler, this would be very hard to pick up in side-on mode. The distances between players and even the angle their body is facing should be taken account of.

That score is nothing to write home about either, honestly have you tried playing end on? its magical. The amount of 30 point thrashings i've handed out in worldcup finals playing with Georgia and Russia is a sad indictment on my life.
There is nothing wrong with my depth perception either haha, i just felt that in end-on view it was more like the real deal. Facing up to a defensive line and seeing your players spread to the left and the right of you feels more like "rugby" to me.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick to some extent, im not saying "lets get rid of side-on view because i dont like it"
What im saying is that there are these great ideas, things that would revolutionize the game that only work in end-on mode. It would be very very difficult to create a fluid and responsive side-stepping system that works in side-on for example, that kicking stick (which is used brilliantly in madden already) cant work in side-on as you have already said. A hit stick for tackling is hard to get right side-on.

How many ideas have to be swatted down because they dont work in side-on before people accept that a more "madden like" system is needed and we move to end-on only.

 

[ranger]

Gridiron isnt a face paced game that can constantly change possesion. It wouldnt be a problem in single player, but playing offline multiplayer would be a *****.

Mate, its a moot point. IT ALREADY EXISTS these aren't far off problems we may encounter, the system exists right now.

Me and all of my friends play with end on view in rugby 08. Its not a big deal at all.. you barely notice. Its even helpfull sometimes when a ruck is 50/50 and the camera swings so you know you have won it. Honestly throw in any of the rugby ***les and try playing end-on mode. Theres no problems with it.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I used to play side-on myself seen as it was the default, i played with it for the entire 04 and 05 games so i know the ins and outs of the system. I just found it ridiculously irritating. I know you can see where the gaps are currently but currently the gaps are ridiculously huge. What i have been calling for is the gaps to become subtler, this would be very hard to pick up in side-on mode. The distances between players and even the angle their body is facing should be taken account of.

That score is nothing to write home about either, honestly have you tried playing end on? its magical. The amount of 30 point thrashings i've handed out in worldcup finals playing with Georgia and Russia is a sad indictment on my life.
There is nothing wrong with my depth perception either haha, i just felt that in end-on view it was more like the real deal. Facing up to a defensive line and seeing your players spread to the left and the right of you feels more like "rugby" to me.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick to some extent, im not saying "lets get rid of side-on view because i dont like it"
What im saying is that there are these great ideas, things that would revolutionize the game that only work in end-on mode. It would be very very difficult to create a fluid and responsive side-stepping system that works in side-on for example, that kicking stick (which is used brilliantly in madden already) cant work in side-on as you have already said. A hit stick for tackling is hard to get right side-on.

How many ideas have to be swatted down because they dont work in side-on before people accept that a more "madden like" system is needed and we move to end-on only.

The point of mentioning that score wasn't to say it was a good one, it was to say it was a routine one and if it's that easy on side-on elite, it won't matter if the tighten the gaps up. The Georgia Russia thing isn't really special either really, it's not about that sort of "oooh I can score this, I beat this team with this one". The point is that side-on is VERY playable and played by many. I strongly object to it being told to go away, as would you if I said that about end-on. Thankfully, I'm not that obsessed by my own preferences to exclude the preferences of others.

Simply put, i don't think we will move backwards to end-on. You see what I did there? It's not cool to suggest that we need to "move on" to end-on. That's saying that people who don't agree with you are backwards.

Side-stepping works fine with the right stick in side-on. So do fends and shoulder barges. It's just the kicking which would be difficult to implement, but not impossible. Even if I played end on, I'm not exactly excited by using the right stick for everything, this isn't an fps or Fight Night.

The right stick major changes might not work. If they did them, they may not calibrate them quite right, they may make for all sorts of unplayable situations. Would that be a good thing? Will another Rugby game be out the following year if people don't buy it because they hate a lot of changes that add little and don't work?

Why do we not just want the important things fixed? There seems to be a movement on here to turn Rugby into a completely different game in control, features, layout and every other possible thing under the sun. Is this a good thing to be focusing on for the first instalment on a new platform?

There's things that need to be fixed from previous Rugby games, but a complete and utter new mechanic for everything will only lead to a botched job on some feature or other and probably the ruination of the potential of the series.

In short, I'm with the "fix up the little things and make what we already know work better" crowd. Not the "change everything, I mean everything!" minority.

 

[ranger]

The point of mentioning that score wasn't to say it was a good one, it was to say it was a routine one and if it's that easy on side-on elite, it won't matter if the tighten the gaps up. The Georgia Russia thing isn't really special either really, it's not about that sort of "oooh I can score this, I beat this team with this one". The point is that side-on is VERY playable and played by many. I strongly object to it being told to go away, as would you if I said that about end-on. Thankfully, I'm not that obsessed by my own preferences to exclude the preferences of others.

Simply put, i don't think we will move backwards to end-on. You see what I did there? It's not cool to suggest that we need to "move on" to end-on. That's saying that people who don't agree with you are backwards.

Side-stepping works fine with the right stick in side-on. So do fends and shoulder barges. It's just the kicking which would be difficult to implement, but not impossible. Even if I played end on, I'm not exactly excited by using the right stick for everything, this isn't an fps or Fight Night.

The right stick major changes might not work. If they did them, they may not calibrate them quite right, they may make for all sorts of unplayable situations. Would that be a good thing? Will another Rugby game be out the following year if people don't buy it because they hate a lot of changes that add little and don't work?

Why do we not just want the important things fixed? There seems to be a movement on here to turn Rugby into a completely different game in control, features, layout and every other possible thing under the sun. Is this a good thing to be focusing on for the first instalment on a new platform?

There's things that need to be fixed from previous Rugby games, but a complete and utter new mechanic for everything will only lead to a botched job on some feature or other and probably the ruination of the potential of the series.

In short, I'm with the "fix up the little things and make what we already know work better" crowd. Not the "change everything, I mean everything!" minority.

Ugh. Okay. Lets try this again.

1.You don't need to tell me about how the game plays side-on. Im very familiar with it already. Also, i realise those scores are nothing out of the ordinary, i wasn't bragging about it, i was just showing you that telling me the score vs the cpu doesnt really prove anything because as you probably have realised its ****-easy any way you look at it.

2.This is not about "my preference" being better than "your preference" If you could keep both and make the changes that i want, i would want that. Stop taking this so personally.

3. Poor wording on my part, i wasn't meaning "move on to end-on view" but instead moving on to the features that come with end-on view, like the ones all the other sports games already have

4.The side stepping and fending and barges DO NOT work side on. They have to be pre-canned to accommodate the setting. What i want sidesteps and fends ect that are fluid and responsive to the players input its not as if its an unreachable goal, madden and 2k have had it since 2005, Rugby should be up to that level.
With the side on view, you cant really put this in practice properly, this is what lead to the "Press the stick away from the tackler with the right timing for the predetermined handoff animation, press the stick to the right of the tackler for the predetermined side-step" ect.

5.The right stick just for fps or fightnight?
-NHL uses the right stick for evasive manouvers
-NBA live uses the right stick for crossovers and dribble moves
-NFL uses the right stick for sidesteps and charges
-FIFA uses the right stick for tricks and dribble moves
-NBA 2k uses the right stick for shooting and dunk variations
-TigerWoods uses the right stick for swinging the club

Infact show me a high profile sports game the doesnt use the right stick.

6.If they dont calibrate the right stick properly then that's what pre-release game testing is for. This technology has been around for a long time, all i'm asking for is the same sorts of features Madden was working on in late 2003 and every sports game now utilities. I don't feel it's too great of an ask.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Ugh. Okay. Lets try this again.

1.You don't need to tell me about how the game plays side-on. Im very familiar with it already. Also, i realise those scores are nothing out of the ordinary, i wasn't bragging about it, i was just showing you that telling me the score vs the cpu doesnt really prove anything because as you probably have realised its ****-easy any way you look at it.

2.This is not about "my preference" being better than "your preference" If you could keep both and make the changes that i want, i would want that. Stop taking this so personally.

3. Poor wording on my part, i wasn't meaning "move on to end-on view" but instead moving on to the features that come with end-on view, like the ones all the other sports games already have

4.The side stepping and fending and barges DO NOT work side on. They have to be pre-canned to accommodate the setting. What i want sidesteps and fends ect that are fluid and responsive to the players input its not as if its an unreachable goal, madden and 2k have had it since 2005, Rugby should be up to that level.
With the side on view, you cant really put this in practice properly, this is what lead to the "Press the stick away from the tackler with the right timing for the predetermined handoff animation, press the stick to the right of the tackler for the predetermined side-step" ect.

5.The right stick just for fps or fightnight?
-NHL uses the right stick for evasive manouvers
-NBA live uses the right stick for crossovers and dribble moves
-NFL uses the right stick for sidesteps and charges
-FIFA uses the right stick for tricks and dribble moves
-NBA 2k uses the right stick for shooting and dunk variations
-TigerWoods uses the right stick for swinging the club

Infact show me a high profile sports game the doesnt use the right stick.

6.If they dont calibrate the right stick properly then that's what pre-release game testing is for. This technology has been around for a long time, all i'm asking for is the same sorts of features Madden was working on in late 2003 and every sports game now utilities. I don't feel it's too great of an ask.

Okay, point by point.

2. I'm not taking this personally. I'm making my points as are you.

3. Okay, I'm glad you didn't say that we should move on with end-on only. Or should I say you did say it, but you didn't mean it. I can accept that.

4. I have played both views myself and I have absolutely no more or any less luck with side-steps fends and barges in either view. So, you have that opinion, but it's not a consensus, any more than my own opinion is. I take it that Fifa's side-on tricks are pre-canned too. Which part of the programming team is your source for that?

5. I never said that the right stick is only for fps or fight night. I indicated those two as games that use both sticks at all times and was suggesting that I felt you might like both sticks operating that much in a game such as rugby, which I think would be unworkable. So you have mis-quoted me there. Never mind.

6. I don't think implementing some of these technologies is beyond the design and programming teams. I do think that a dramatic change for a first instalment on the newer platforms would require a much greater amount of testing time, (which you yourself have said). Spending a great amount of development time trying to implement something that Madden doesn't have (mid-action kicking from a right stick, which uses x to activate the stepping and fending) would certainly be an interesting way to drain resources towards something that really isn't broken, just needs fine-tuning.

Still horses for courses. Good luck with that. We'll see if they pick your idea up and run with it.

 

[Joni89]

CrossField Kick
Sorry if anyone has discussed this already.

I think the CrossField Kick should be easier to implement as it was difficult to implement and is also used more in rugby these days.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

CrossField Kick
Sorry if anyone has discussed this already.

I think the CrossField Kick should be easier to implement as it was difficult to implement and is also used more in rugby these days.

Yeah, that's a pretty reasonable thing to want fixed. It is a part of the game that comes up a bit in the real world that can be exciting if done right. I think they had an okay first crack at it, but need to refine it.

 

[best_fullback]

Woh this is pretty big debate! I have to say though Ranger, eventhough I have agreed with you 100% on most of the things you have put in this forum regarding Rugby 2012 I would have to disagree with you on some of this. I, personally, hate the end-on view. Its just a personal preference. Once I started to get used to the side-on view I thought it was fine, and as Craig has said, JLR used it and you couldn't change the camera on that. But it is each to their own.

I don't think there are any problems spotting gaps really and I've never had a problem. If you think about it, when you watch Rugby on TV its always side-on and I can always spot whether there is a gap in the defence or overlap. I would (if I were the developer) change the camera so it was higher though and you had a better view of the whole pitch i.e. Fifa 10.

I agree the special moves on previous ***les were awful. I found them fine to operate on side-on but either way were close to useless because they were all based on exact timing and nothing else. But I don't think they were bad just because of the view, I think they're bad because they just weren't designed very well. I wouldn't mind seeing right stick for moves, but I wouldn't mind the use of the shoulder buttons either. I just want to see non-canned animations that don't require exact timing to succeed - as you have said; fluid animations.

Getting back to kicking; I don't think using the right stick for kicking would work as Jaymzw has suggested. Maybe for goal kicking yes, but I just can't see using it for out of hand kicking for the varied amount of kicks, end-on or side-on. Im not sure if it has been lost in translation that Jaymzw meant goal kicking as in place kicking, and not a drop goal as us northern herisphere guys call it that has caused this debate?

Anyway I feel as I have shown in the first post that, as Craig has also said, that this is an area that only needs tweaking, not completely overhauling. Nice to see some constructive debating though!

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Woh this is pretty big debate! I have to say though Ranger, eventhough I have agreed with you 100% on most of the things you have put in this forum regarding Rugby 2012 I would have to disagree with you on some of this. I, personally, hate the end-on view. Its just a personal preference. Once I started to get used to the side-on view I thought it was fine, and as Craig has said, JLR used it and you couldn't change the camera on that. But it is each to their own.

I don't think there are any problems spotting gaps really and I've never had a problem. If you think about it, when you watch Rugby on TV its always side-on and I can always spot whether there is a gap in the defence or overlap. I would (if I were the developer) change the camera so it was higher though and you had a better view of the whole pitch i.e. Fifa 10.

I agree the special moves on previous ***les were awful. I found them fine to operate on side-on but either way were close to useless because they were all based on exact timing and nothing else. But I don't think they were bad just because of the view, I think they're bad because they just weren't designed very well. I wouldn't mind seeing right stick for moves, but I wouldn't mind the use of the shoulder buttons either. I just want to see non-canned animations that don't require exact timing to succeed - as you have said; fluid animations.

Getting back to kicking; I don't think using the right stick for kicking would work as Jaymzw has suggested. Maybe for goal kicking yes, but I just can't see using it for out of hand kicking for the varied amount of kicks, end-on or side-on. Im not sure if it has been lost in translation that Jaymzw meant goal kicking as in place kicking, and not a drop goal as us northern herisphere guys call it that has caused this debate?

Anyway I feel as I have shown in the first post that, as Craig has also said, that this is an area that only needs tweaking, not completely overhauling. Nice to see some constructive debating though!

However hard we disagree on this one I respect the fact that ranger has really stuck up for what he believes in. I'm sure he's not the only one to want to implement the ideas he has in mind, but it was just a classic situation earlier of two people with completely opposite views on a particular issue. It's probably an opportune time to mention that it's extremely healthy to have strong debates on issues on TRF, as long as we try our best to play the ball and not the man, lol.

I think gradually we're starting to get the picture of the broader spectrum of people's hopes for this game and it's interesting to see that there's some very clear agreement on some of these, yet a divergence of consensus on others. Luckily things like camera angle have been a two or more option thing to this point. Maybe there will be one or two more possible options which can be adjusted. As in the kicking controls.

Back to the issue, I do agree it'd be interesting to place kick with the right stick. I like that the more I think of it.

 

[Duckdee]

With an option to do it the old way. (Sorry, had to.)

 

[Hamez]

I think we can all agree an other camera angle other than side to side or end to end is utterly useless, I dont see the point in wasting time making a tv broadcast veiw.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I think we can all agree an other camera angle other than side to side or end to end is utterly useless, I dont see the point in wasting time making a tv broadcast veiw.

Well there's a very valid point Hamez. Maybe instead of slagging off each others preferred playing view, we should get the message across that only the two being discussed are really played by anyone and they're best to get those ones right and perfected.

I agree with best fullback also, that side-on view has been gradually elevated to an even higher angle in the last few Fifa games (not just the zoom in/out, but the actually angle has been increased) and that this would make side-on even better still.

 

[candybum]

I like the kicking of Rugby 2001, how the camera pans out when in side view. I'm going to play that now!

 

[Hamez]

Well there's a very valid point Hamez. Maybe instead of slagging off each others preferred playing view, we should get the message across that only the two being discussed are really played by anyone and they're best to get those ones right and perfected.

I agree with best fullback also, that side-on view has been gradually elevated to an even higher angle in the last few Fifa games (not just the zoom in/out, but the actually angle has been increased) and that this would make side-on even better still.

Yes I think a bit of tweaking of the side on veiw would be good, get the angle, zoom and elevation right. and the same with end on end. They would be much better off just getting those 2 right rather than spend so much time making 5 or 6 veiws that no one uses.

 

[Jaymzw]

Getting back to kicking; I don't think using the right stick for kicking would work as Jaymzw has suggested. Maybe for goal kicking yes, but I just can't see using it for out of hand kicking for the varied amount of kicks, end-on or side-on. Im not sure if it has been lost in translation that Jaymzw meant goal kicking as in place kicking, and not a drop goal as us northern herisphere guys call it that has caused this debate?

Anyway I feel as I have shown in the first post that, as Craig has also said, that this is an area that only needs tweaking, not completely overhauling. Nice to see some constructive debating though!

Yes, my idea to implement the right stick was for place kicking (sorry) only. General play X works well. Just to clear that up

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Yes, my idea to implement the right stick was for place kicking (sorry) only. General play X works well. Just to clear that up

Okay then. I'm in total agreement that it would be cool then.

 

[Dexter Tauvao]

The system in Rugby 08 for drop goals (the let go of circleNOW) thingy, was a relatively nice idea.

But kickers dont kick at full power EVERY time. Some kickers purposely take power off to increase accuracy.

A distance system like holding a button down needs to be implemented. Like rugby 04 with the thin/ fat arrow, the longer you hold the button, the fatter the arrow gets.

Also, we need to have a 65 Metre MAX on drop goals. Eg: Kicking Power 100, Kicking <97, you should be able to land this kick. Wind could make it an inevitable 70 metres, but kicking power DEFINATELY needs to be re adjusted. 100 power in 08 means only 50 max? Heck almost every South African flyhalf can do that.
___

I hope wind affects the ball a lot more. I like Jaymzw's idea of the Tiger Woods spin system. But arent most 'spins' on rugby kicks due to the bounce of the ball?
Maybe using McCracka_09's idea of the forward lean, up right lean, you could lean the ball sideways like Jhonathan Thurston?

Grubber kick timing needs to be shortened, and the ball needs to bounce realistically. It will not always travel in a straight line, and will not always have a nice bounce. (As Jongi Nokwe for the Cheetahs found out so harshly yesterday)

Punting: Accuracy probably does play a much more important role than distance. The thin to fat arrow system applies here, but im not too sure on the radius idea. ?

Please have wind and ESPECIALLY altitude affect the ball? Daniel Carter says his own range ends at 55m for a goal kick. He landed 62 metres at Loftus Versfield??
(Imagine what François Steyn could do on a windy day at Loftus?) hint hint? The 70 metre kick becomes possible?

___

Liking the double tap idea for chip kicks, distance on the second tap is brilliant. Also the choice of end to end of spiral punt by using L2 is great
Oh, and the short arrow to make kicks unpredictable is a must. Though it is fun to have Montgomery and Latham at Fullback to have a forceback battle, it is (a little) far fetched to see 22 to 22 kicks for fun.

 

[Dexter Tauvao]

I personally kinda hate the Madden right stick kicking system, and the goal kicking system is brilliant.
I wouldnt mind too much if I am completely out numbered and the Madden kicking style wins the vote.

Though one thing with the current goal kicking system.

Has anyone else noticed that on elite, you can get max power and max accuracy with only a few players?
Percy Montgomery is the best kicker for this. Though Wilkinson has better power and accuracy, it is impossible to get max power/accuracy because it is always a LITTLE bit too far to the left or right, which in elite cause a natrual drift on the ball.

Accuracy should only decide how fast the meter goes up and down. Most accuracy's dont allow a perfect kick.
The only other example of a perfect kick I can find is 'C. Heffler' usually found in your starting div 3 WL team.

His stats arent great meaning his perfect kick hits 50 metres max maybe?

But it is annoying that Wilkinson and Carter and Flatley cant get perfect kicks.

 

[scuubasteve]

I'm a big fan of craigs ideas in general. I think we think alike a lot.
But I tend to fall inline more with the ranger concept of favouring a default view from end on if the game is to capture the feel for fluid play that I hope it has. I do think that 95% of good ideas can be captured I the side on view too, especially if the viewing angle is raised in height to be looking down onto the field more. But I'd hope that the game would be realistic enough to require you to see the space and men in motion well enough to the point where you'd almost have to play end on. But I think you probably alienate too many people if you removed what has been the default view forever in rugby games. So we're gunna have to work around it for now. But to be cheeky I'd love to see what would happen to opinions if end on was made default for Rugby2012.

As for the rest. I love the Tiger Woods type system for place kicking. I actually specifically logged in to post the same thing myself! It allows you to control accuracy and power in one motion on the fly and also allows curve of the ball too. Honestly if anyone hasn't used this system try and find a way to give it a go for anhiur or so and you'll see how well it would transfer over to Rugby.

I also agree that kicking power needs to be adjusted down for the top players and brought up for the lower players. But a good kicker is 80% accuracy and 20% power. So accuracy is the major point that needs to be captured.

Kicks should be more accurate off the players natural foot and weaker off their bad foot. Kicks should also get more accurate the longer the player has to kick it. So if you can put pressure on the kicker then the accuracy of their kick reduces.

I'd be keen to see a system where a large movable circle on the field shows where the kick is going to land somewhere inside. The better the kicker accuracy the faster the circle reduces in size. A super boots kicking target would reduce very quickly compared to a weak player. The more powerful the kicker the further you could move the kicking circle/target down the field. The further down the field you aim the bigger the circle gets overall because it is harder to kick the ball long and accurate. If a player is kicking off their weak foot, which would happen if you hit the kick button whilst running to the left (for a right footer etc) then the circle would start off larger than if you kicked off the dominant foot.

This system is more like the bowling accuracy function on Cricket games, which is a concept I think many will understand?

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Grubber kick timing needs to be shortened, and the ball needs to bounce realistically. It will not always travel in a straight line, and will not always have a nice bounce. (As Jongi Nokwe for the Cheetahs found out so harshly yesterday).

I know it takes away from realism, but we also have to be realistic in another way. If your playing online and the guy your playing against has scored 2 tries earlier with grubbers that rolled straight forwards or sat-up, and you try to do it just once and it rolls over the side-line for you to lose by 4 points, I'd imagine it wouldn't take long for your controller to end up near or in the television.

I think that the only way they could do inaccuracy with grubbers is if the arrow for the grubber extends quicker and if it goes past it's max it goes from green to red and then you let go it turns into a skewed grubber and may roll one way or the other.