Rugby 2012 - Ruck/Maul System Improvement Suggestions

[Dan_H]

Good ideas have been posted about options for quick steals of the ball, which I feel needs to be top priority in changing the rucking system for the new game. It was infuriating in the past game when the full back or wing would make a tackle and support wouldn't be there but they couldn't take the ball off the runner. Other threads have talked about implementing new tackling styles and animations so maybe this is the way to change the ability to steal the ball. On type of tackle would be weaker and offer a higher chance of the runner breaking the tackle, but would give the defender a better chance of stealing the ball. Then the stronger tackle would bring the runner down more of the time but would make stealing the ball harder. This also offers the use of player stats to be utilized more in the game. ie...weak tacklers would have to focus on the stronger tackle so they don't miss the runner, but stronger tacklers would have a better chance of getting the player down and stealing the ball. HB can't focus too much on rucking and let the rest of the game go, so trying to find a way to increase multiple areas of the game at once will be more cost effective.

 

[Duncan]

Shouldnt be too complicated and must slow the gameplay down

 

[Tomsey]

From the other forum..
Oookay heres my solution for the breakdown issue.

At the moment, there is no real feeling of control or input at the breakdown, nor is there a tangible reason why you win or lose any given competition. It seems to be down to a roll of the dice to be honest.
My solution is instead of pretending that we are in control, just take the step of actually making the breakdowns automatic. Much like in Madden. do you know how you control the offensive line? you dont, its done automatically because the focus is on running and passing. The focus of Rugby is on the running and passing game aswell so its only logical.

At the team selection screen, a player would be able to set his forwards to either "Automatic Rucking" or "Support". If you chose to set a forward to automatic rucking, they would automatically go from ruck to ruck sealing off and securing ball on offence, and counter rucking once a tackle is made on defence. Once the ball is secured by either team, they fan out to either defend the close channels or set up for the next ruck depending on the outcome.

The effectiveness of these players would directly depend on their rucking and counter-rucking ratings. Because it is decided by the AI who hits the rucks, and not just the closet guys around the tackle, you would visibly be able to see Richie McCaw hitting 5 rucks in a row, or Schalk Burger outmuscling two players to secure the ball. You could have openside flankers running specialist lines directly accross the field, taking them out of the play as far as recieving a pass goes, but getting them to the breakdown twice as fast. You would be able to program in world class forwards being awesome. This would give them value, unlike in the last games where the only good forward was a fast forward that can break tackles. This way, if you choose Martin Williams, you know you're going to get a steady supply of ball

The other major advantage of this system is the ability to choose "Support" forwards. This would mean that if you had a guy in your team like Sebastian Chabal, Sione Lauaki or Pierre Spies that are absolute monsters with the ball in hand, you can change the way their AI works. So instead of them being tied up in the tight, they would hang around in the backs more looking for opportunities to hit it up, they would follow the ball carrier looking to receive an offload at pace or drift backfield to hit up return kicks. I envisage you having the ability to change the players from "support" to "automatic rucking" during the game depending on how its going and vice versa.

This is a stupid idea. I think its obvious that everyone wants Rugby12 to be more realistic, as that was the major flaw with its predecessors, especially in the ruck area. Your theory would make rucking, and thus the game MORE unrealistic. You say it should have designated "rucking" players and designated "support" players when this would be an impossible strategy in real rugby. Have you ever seen a player make it to 5 rucks in a row? There is physically not enough time to do it even if a player had the stamina. The reality is that all players have to go into a ruck sometimes because otherwise the team would never get the ball. Of the players who aren't in the ruck one is chosen to run the ball in a support role but it has to be in that order. Your reasoning for your plans is given as "that works in madden" but madden is a game based on NFL a completely different game to rugby and that's something I'm very happy about.

Best_fullbacks idea, on the other hand, is a great idea. I definitely agree with the player having more control over the finer details of the game and making the decisions in game play the same as the decisions a player would have to make in a real game. Rucking is such an important part of rugby, it should be an important part of this game too. Not so sure about the simple version but agree that something has to be done to make it easy enough for amatures to play.​

 

[ranger]

This is a stupid idea. I think its obvious that everyone wants Rugby12 to be more realistic, as that was the major flaw with its predecessors, especially in the ruck area. Your theory would make rucking, and thus the game MORE unrealistic. You say it should have designated "rucking" players and designated "support" players when this would be an impossible strategy in real rugby. Have you ever seen a player make it to 5 rucks in a row? There is physically not enough time to do it even if a player had the stamina. The reality is that all players have to go into a ruck sometimes because otherwise the team would never get the ball. Of the players who aren't in the ruck one is chosen to run the ball in a support role but it has to be in that order. Your reasoning for your plans is given as "that works in madden" but madden is a game based on NFL a completely different game to rugby and that's something I'm very happy about.

Best_fullbacks idea, on the other hand, is a great idea. I definitely agree with the player having more control over the finer details of the game and making the decisions in game play the same as the decisions a player would have to make in a real game. Rucking is such an important part of rugby, it should be an important part of this game too. Not so sure about the simple version but agree that something has to be done to make it easy enough for amatures to play.​

Mate, harsh.

The reason i put it forward like that was because of how the system is at the moment. As it stands the rugby game is at an awkward point where the rucking isnt really in your control anyway it just makes a half assed attempt to look like you have control over it.
Everyone, including me, has put forward ways that you could actually have full say over what happens in the ruck, but when i thought about it, it would be expensive and time consuming for HB to make up and implement a completely new rucking control. Think about the logistics of it, it would be a nightmare and would take up the vast bulk of the new updates for the game. Also, when you think about it however, the majority of gamers (not necessarily rugby fanatics but the people that would actually be paying money for the game) don't really care about the ruck. The bit that everyone wants is the free flowing running, sidestepping and passing game, not the confusing button bashing bit when you get tackled. You are never going to pull in new markets by showing off how realistic the rucking controls are! Everyone in the sports gaming world is losing it over how awesome the running game is on backbraker (an american football game), and you hardly ever get to actually run the ball! If HB focused its powers on creating an amazing free flowing running rugby game, then you could attract a huge group of american gamers that have no idea about rugby itself but are drawn to the running game. More games sold means more money earned at that means a higher budget and a better rugby game in future where you could put the option of advanced ruck control in.

As for having rucking and support players being an impossible strategy, i just don't think you understand.
Every team i have ever been involved with has put this into play to some extent, with some players hanging out of the rucks more often than others. Look at Keiran Read or Liam Messam.
I'm not proposing that the support players never go into rucks, i'm saying that rucking players go in without being told where as you had to tell support players or backs to go in if you need extra people or there is no ruckforwards close, just like in the real game. If this system was put into place then before the game the AI could calculate the stats of both teams forwards and predecide the approximate percentage of possession each team will receive.

Also, i have seen one man hit 5 rucks in a row before, it was Richie McCaw and it was ******* incredible. I dont know why you are withering on about there not being enough time? its a ruck mate they can go for ages.
Obviously not everyone would be able to pull that kind of **** off, the best, elite ruckers in the world would occasionally pull off ridiculous plays. That was one of my problems with the previous games, there was no way that the elite ruckers could stand out, they just made them really fast or injure people or when they made a tackle they just fell over and the ball magically pops out your side. If the animations were predetermined based on stats + field position etc, then you could physically and tangibly show how much better those players are at rucktime.

The players that are chosen to run the ball aren't necessarily just the ones who were too lazy to get to the ruck! some players are tactically and deliberately told to avoid getting tied up in rucks and stay out in the backs to run. Obviously they would come into the ruck sometimes but the majority of the time they would be runners.

"Your reasoning for your plans is given as "that works in madden" but madden is a game based on NFL a completely different game to rugby and that's something I'm very happy about. " This is just ******* insulting.

 

[xbatousaix]

From the other forum..

Oookay heres my solution for the breakdown issue.

At the moment, there is no real feeling of control or input at the breakdown, nor is there a tangible reason why you win or lose any given competition. It seems to be down to a roll of the dice to be honest.
My solution is instead of pretending that we are in control, just take the step of actually making the breakdowns automatic. Much like in Madden. do you know how you control the offensive line? you dont, its done automatically because the focus is on running and passing. The focus of Rugby is on the running and passing game aswell so its only logical.

At the team selection screen, a player would be able to set his forwards to either "Automatic Rucking" or "Support". If you chose to set a forward to automatic rucking, they would automatically go from ruck to ruck sealing off and securing ball on offence, and counter rucking once a tackle is made on defence. Once the ball is secured by either team, they fan out to either defend the close channels or set up for the next ruck depending on the outcome.

The effectiveness of these players would directly depend on their rucking and counter-rucking ratings. Because it is decided by the AI who hits the rucks, and not just the closet guys around the tackle, you would visibly be able to see Richie McCaw hitting 5 rucks in a row, or Schalk Burger outmuscling two players to secure the ball. You could have openside flankers running specialist lines directly accross the field, taking them out of the play as far as recieving a pass goes, but getting them to the breakdown twice as fast. You would be able to program in world class forwards being awesome. This would give them value, unlike in the last games where the only good forward was a fast forward that can break tackles. This way, if you choose Martin Williams, you know you're going to get a steady supply of ball

The other major advantage of this system is the ability to choose "Support" forwards. This would mean that if you had a guy in your team like Sebastian Chabal, Sione Lauaki or Pierre Spies that are absolute monsters with the ball in hand, you can change the way their AI works. So instead of them being tied up in the tight, they would hang around in the backs more looking for opportunities to hit it up, they would follow the ball carrier looking to receive an offload at pace or drift backfield to hit up return kicks. I envisage you having the ability to change the players from "support" to "automatic rucking" during the game depending on how its going and vice versa.

If you think there is a real opportunity to steal the ball on defence and want extra numbers, you can hit the usual join ruck button to add backs into the fray to try and tip the balance, but this would leave holes or forwards in the backline if you dont turn it over, leaving an attacking opportunity. Similarly on offence you could throw the backs into the ruck if for instance you have made a break in the line and the closest players are backs. But ordinarily you would leave the forward pack to do their jobs

It would put a real tactical spin on squad selection too. I envisage a persons skill in selecting a balanced 22 being almost if not as important as a persons skill in the actual game. I want to see players not necessarily being "better" than each other, but better at certain aspects of the game. Some players would then appear better than each other depending on your individual style and philosophy about the game. Much like in the NFL when players are deciding between a predominantly passing or predominantly running game. Or in NBA where players decide between a halfcourt or fastbreak type offense.

-Can you afford to carry a front row of 3 scrummagers that arent very good at the breakdown? You might have to offset this by not having any "support" players, just a loose forward pack of ruckers to support the ball. This loss might then have to be offset by selecting a bigger unit at inside centre to compensate for the lack of a powerful runner coming out of the forwards. This would mean you lose a kicking and playmaker option from your inside centre and you might need to go for more of a tactical flyhalf-type fullback rather than a counter attacking one to compensate. The fact that you cant counter attack from kicks may mean you have to change your whole game plan and set moves.. Its these types of quandaries i want to be created

I agree completly the key to this system is the ai each player will have to be tactically aware. Thats where I want to see the biggest improvements, Want to see big forwards being slow and slugish in the last 20 to 15 min forcing you to think about substitutions depending on the strength of your sqauds also say if you make alot of players commit to the ruck in your stratagy it effects your players stamina so if you use your backs alot especially small ones with bad rucking stats like shane williams he's got a chance to win the ball if the other player is isolated but if he gets cleaned out buy like bakies botha or chabal he's got no chance of winning the ball and he's stamina will go down. So if you use your wings and smaller centers all the time at the ruck you might win more ball but you will be making them more tired wich in the last 20 min could have a big effect on who wins the game it also promotes building a good squad for subs but as I said the AI will be key.

 

[lukeyhym]

Improved Breakdowns, Set pieces & tackles: In 06and 08 we had the problem of being punished for good play, with ridiculous turnovers at crucial/unrealistic times. When you make a break, the momentum shift should be evident, and you should, more than likely win the ensuing ruck when tackled, as your team in going forwards and defenders have to retire from behind the gate. It should also be evident in defence when you make a dominant tackle that it's easier to steal the ball and/or counter the ruck (maybe if you make a dominant tackle you have 3 secs or so to compete for the ball by clicking the R3 button as fast as you can, do it for too long you get pinged by the ref (warning sign needed) or don't do it at all and just reset your Defence). you should have the option to pop off the ground in attack if your player is going forward with momentum into the tackle.

Counter rucking: there has to be room for this, opportunistic counter rucking on slow ball is a crucial part of the game and being able to steal in the tackle is a feature that is so prominent in the real game, but has never been able to be explored/pulled off properly in a video game.

You should be able to have a bit more control in the maul, i.e. direction, players shaving off and gaining momentum etc. must be room for error though as if it's too dominant it gets stupid and boring. Lineouts could be a bit more varied, particulalry when challenging in defence and the ability to use short lineouts to create forward running options in midfield to stretch the defence and scrums could have more competitive control, too.

Improved defensive options: It would be awesome to include an on-the-fly defensive option system, whereby you could choose to, for example, to inflict a brutal rush defense when opposition ball is slow, to compliment this, you should be able to pull players out of the ruck if the ball is lost, to make defense more involved, more important and require more thought, if you include the ability to counter ruck, players will have to balance the opportunities that presents with the risks that it opens up outside the ruck if the ball gets cleared by the opposition quickly and vice versa (i.e. forward dominance and go forward via pick and go's and short balls, if you thin the defence out too much)-to counter this, refer to my points on more varied ball play....chipping options etc nullify rush defence etc etc etc.,

Tackling needs to be more varied, big hits were maybe a bit too easy to pull off in previous games, and in attack you could easily doa bit of crazy running to avoid tackles alltogether....half tackles, ankle taps, big hits, dead heats and non dominant tackles create and prevent opportunites being created, by making the physics in the tackling more realistic, and the AI of defending players more willing to attempt tackles from wherever they are, we'll see much more varied gameply, with half breaks and pop/flick passes and quick ruck ball etc playing a major part in developing the flow of gameplay...it would help to create a less one-dimensional playing environment, and reduce the temptation to take advantage of AI failings and glitches.

 

[rogertom]

I'm with you Ranger, top thinking mate!! Mini-games at the ruck idea are simply not the way to go. Too invasive, too distracting from the flow of the game
What ranger is proposing is to define the roles of the pack before/during the game. This keeps the mechanics simple, gives you as the puppet master REAL control, AND introduces a whole bunch of delicious tactical nuance to the game!

If I were to put a further refinement on this idea, it would be this:
3 seperate roles which forwards adopt in real life, namely;
1) ruck hitter - hits every ruck without remorse, no thought of getting the ball in hand in play (Matfield, Thorn, J Smit etc. )
2) runner in the tight - good ball runners who play in the tight and utilise good low body position to make metres in the channels around the ruck (Mealamu, Steenkamp, L Weeks, K Read)
3) on-baller/link-men (maybe these are two categories of their own?) - play a bit further out in the loose and link with the backs, will attempt to pilfer all rucks that aren't heavily attended (G Smith, Elsom, McCaw, Spies etc)

As outlined by ranger in his original post, how you choose to assign roles will affect your selections right accross the park (just like in real, life). Too many flashy footed meatheads in the pack (RSA playing Spies & Kankowski in the same backrow!! or Aus playing Mumm and Chis who couldn't find their way over the gain line in the tight with a GPS) then you'd better have some very effective tight forwards and big inside backs to help you punch over the line. Too many blokes doing the hard yards in the tight will get you plenty of ball but your inside backs might get rolled in contact more often then you'd like because the opposition 6,7,8 are all lurking around the back line. This perspective really is a very logical and exciting one, let's hope the developers are thinking along similar lines!

 

[donmcdazzle]

some good ideas there from Ranger and rogertom. I like the idea of automation like you've outlined ranger, having full control of the ruck seems a bit of a stretch at this stage so giving it some user control in terms of tactics is a nice idea.

 

[kamola]

a big problem w this is that the offense should get advantage on winning the ball in the ruck, you cant put offense and defense in a symetric dispute, there should be a first moment where the defense is in the correct situation for the player who can pick the ball up. if that doesnt happen or if the offense forms correctly there will be no chance to steal the ball. if you put a turnover system for every ruck youll just make the game slower. Besides, if you watch rugby today, the recovery of the ball doesnt come from ruck turnover, it is from the tackle itself.

 

[dan the man]

Some great ideas... i quite like ranger's one,

Definitely don't wan't a "mini-game" type of thing... they would take away from the flow of the game and would probably end up being very gimmicky/cheesy.

 

[Hurricane Nate]

Hmm some big posts up in here. Has anyone mentioned the idea of being able to set up the pick and go scenario or setting up 'pods' of forwards to the left or right to get ready for the drive over the advantage/try line (or use as a dummy and throw it to the backs). How about setting forwards to the left and right to act as blockers so your halfback or first five can have a few more seconds to clear. I'm really just thinking general things that are simple.

Also should be players who go in from the side (in a desperate situation) and attempt to slow/kill the ball as we all know how often these both happen in a game. Could be automated and maybe have 'bars' you could set in a tactics screen so one end of the scale could be placid the other aggressive and you choose where to set it.

So setting at aggressive would be things like going all out for the turnovers which could result in higher penalty counts against you and having your players play with great urgency and placid which is safe in terms of not getting penalised but little chance of securing a turnover and little player urgency.

Offense wise setting at aggressive could be having players really clearing out the ruck area thus potentially giving your halfback clean fast ball and having your players play with great urgency but also chances of conceding penalties for things like players leaving their feet/sealing the ball off. Placid on offense would be safe again but having higher chances of turning it over and gain players playing with little urgency.

Player stats and numbers at the breakdown would still be the determing factor but I'd find it mean to be able to tell your players how to play. Also you can set the bar where ever you want so it doesn't have to be either aggressive or placid it could be say a 30% - 70% mix and also it would be changeable throughout the whole game through the pause menu. Hopefully I've explained it's a bit rushed.

 

[desmurphy]

your advanced rucking system is the best idea ive seen. i would be over the moon if it was implemented

 

[david0404]

i love the rucking system from the OP and i think HB should really consider it.