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Religion is the cause of every war, we would be better off without it!!!
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Elton John?

And what a stupid statement. Are you saying Saddam invading Kuwait was in the name of Islam? What about Hitler, in World War 2, did Hitler see himself as a crusader in the name of Jesus? And what about World War 1?
 
Hitler still killed of plenty of Jews. That's in the name of religion. And the Japanese tactics in the war were based on there traditional belief. They thought it was better to die than be captured and if they were captured they'd commit sepuku (ritual suicide) before divulging any info.





Okay, now for the copy and paste job from the other thread:

QUOTE(SaintsFan_Webby @ Nov 16 2006, 05:19 AM)

I would say the story of creation but then we'll go around in circles for the rest of time (or until someone discovers something revolutionary).

It's quite a large category, but how about Jesus? What evdience is there he existed? What evidence is there for any of the supposed 'mircales' he performed? What makes him or his actions any more real than the lead character in the latest fictional novel?

And before any claims of being patronising are thrown my way, these are genuine questions.


Um, just to point something out here, the story of creation is infact a story found in the holy books (not stories) of three major semitic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Also, many religions and/or beliefs (getting at the Australian Aboriginals here) have there own creation stories. They don't necessarily have to be true, nor do people have to believe them 100% (and to be honest I don't really listen to people who do) they're just there as a way of thinking about the world. Just like any other good story.

The Bible is not a book as many people believe, but a canon of a number of books. A collection if you will. There are many other books relating to Jesus not included, because the Council of Nicea decided not to include them. Not all stories considered for the Bible are narratives. Some (such as The Gospel of Thomas) are a simple collection of sayings attributed to Jesus. There is very little proof that this guy performed 'miracles' as stated in the Gospels in the Bible, but to say he did not exist is a very negative way of thinking considering all the books written about him; many believed to be written by people who knew him (disciples). Claiming Jesus didn't exist is like saying Moses didn't exist, Prophet Mohammed never existed, Buddha never existed, Confuscious never existed and so on. Just because there is no solid proof doesn't mean it should be ignored - does it? Why can't everyone accept others and their religions rather than taking a blind eye to something they don't believe in? That goes for everyone - even people thathave no set religion or atheists. Actually, those people should be generally more accepting as they shouldn't be so biased towards one religion of the other - they can look over all of them equally.

And when talking of dinosaurs, we can't just say they never existed or didn't die out before humans came into being. Sure carbon-dating is somewhat innaccurate, but that doesn't mean people can't believe what they have read or what they have been told or what they have learned or what they have discovered.

To put it simply good science requires an aknowledgement of all religions and good religion requires an aknowledgement of science (and all other religions). Just because someone doesn't believe something doesn't all of a sudden make it incorrect, nor does a vast number of people who don't believe something make it incorrect, because there are always people who have opposing opinions.

It is the people that can't aknowledge that there are opposing opinions (valid or invalid) to their's that **** me off.




Just another thing. Anyone heard of the Jesus Sutras? These are texts written in the Chinese language which speaks of Jesus and his messages. What is interesting however, is that these sutras speak of reincarnation - a belief not held widely in ANY Christian church (I say ANY as there are many denominations of Christianity alone and none hold this belief strongly).

What is the also interesting is the "pagodas" found in China and other parts of Asia which feature images of Jesus, Buddha, and another which I currently cannot remember. These are all combined into one symbol, showing a unity unknown in the Western world, particularly between Christianity and Islam.

This image and the sutras give further reason to believe that these people did in fact exist, for how could Jesus's teachings be so wide spread in many forms if not for this. Also the dates of each religion are not set in stone which may further suggest that maybe Jesus was Buddha and Buddha was another and so on. Maybe it is a simple interpretation of one person that creates many religions. No?

Just think about that for a minute. Why can't we get along if it were just a simple misinterpretation? Why are there wars fought (mostly) between Christians, Jews and Muslims when all of their basic beliefs is based on the same books (known to Christians as the Old Testament)?

QUOTE(SaintsFan_Webby @ Nov 16 2006, 08:39 PM)

QUOTE(MonoTurd @ Nov 16 2006, 07:34 AM)

All religions are right in their own way, and no one has any right to take that away.


Surely that can't possibly be true though.

A maximum of one religion can be correct. It's impossible that there are more than that which are right.

That's why there has always been so much violence regarding religion, extremists cannot bring themselves to even contemplate that anyone's religion but their own is correct.


But that my friend is quite simply their own belief. That their religion is the one right one. Wars certainly have been fought over religion, but no religion can be right for everyone. It depends on the perosn.

The people that do not recognise the above statement annoy me greatly. For any person to rule out any religion other than their's as the right one is ludicrous, because not everyone is the same.
 
Hitler still killed of plenty of Jews. That's in the name of religion. And the Japanese tactics in the war were based on there traditional belief. They thought it was better to die than be captured and if they were captured they'd commit sepuku (ritual suicide) before divulging any info.[/b]

No, it wasn't. Hitler didn't do it in the name of God. Hitler did what he did to the Jews in the name of the Master Race and Racial Pruification. He did what he did to Europe in the name of the Fatherland and Germany, not God, although he did have a fascination with magical religous artifacts and the occult and all that jazz, well, at least in Indiana Jones.

And wasn't the Japanese schtick the whole Warrior Code thing, not a Religion.
 
Hitler didn't kill jews because of what they believed in it was because of the way that he grew up living around rich jews with power whilst he had nothing.... revenge was one of his main reasons.

My view on god is that whilst most christians will agree on the main aspects of god and what he is like but will differ on some details because everyone is different.
Also i think that we do give God human characteristics, but man was made in God's own image so why not?
 
Einstein said something to effect that the more science you know, the more you realize you don't know and that God is the only explanation (someone clarify this quote if I've got it wrong). Another scientist who's name I can't recall but who was German and key in the first few steps of developing the space rocket, said something like for this world to be so perfectly adapted for human life, it can only be the product of a Divine influence.

I think that the people who think science can answer everything are often the stupider people in the world. Take one example of this friend of mine who isn't particularly bright, doesn't know much about science, but still thinks it can answer everything. It can't, it never will. Without the soul, we are reduced to simple organic machines, without a god, there is no conscience, without a conscience, there are no ethics and morals, without ethics and morals, this world would have blown itself apart long ago. Religion is not what starts wars, people who contort religion and brainwash the uneducated is what starts wars. Notice how the places where you have crazy Arab terrorists are in places where schooling isn't that great, or what they learn is twisted to brainwash the people. You might say religion is a brainwashing, but i don't consider it to be so. We are allowed free will, to do what we like, God tells us don't do this or don't do that because there are consequences, I can say I've noticed this, I'm freerer for loving God, because if I do all the material goods of this world, money, power, etc. become only things which I might want, but realize I don't need. I have greater freedom if I'm not worried whether I'll ever play rugby for Canada and become a professional, I'll strive for that goal, and I can see that this journey has already taken me places I wouldn't have gone otherwise.


So alot of dis jointed thoughts on my faith, I'm gonna come back with more.
 
I think that the people who think science can answer everything are often the stupider people in the world.
[/b]

I take particular offence to that.
In my eyes, there is no God. Therefore, with no God then at that's left is science (as far as i'm concerned.)

So yes, science DOES have all the answers as far as i'm concerned.
Whether we'll ever discover the answers or whether we're capable of asking the right questions is a whole other issue.

So for those who don't have a God in their life, we don't exactly feel worse off.
In fact i feel much more freedom now that i have grown up with the ability to choose for myself rather than have Christianity shoved down my throat like i had when i was a kid.

I also don't like it when people mention your "soul"
What is your "soul"?
It's just a state of mind. It's abstract. It's like love.

How can you truly say it exists?
 
Any of you guys watched "What the Bleep Do We Know?"...

It's a doco-movie (rage these days) with high production costs (fancy fx) that talks about God, time, space and features interviews with the highest minded scientists, psychologists, religion scholars all around the world.

It's made in 2004 so the ideas and thoughts they shared are fairly up to date and you can be damn sure that what they say will probably be more profound than your average joe speculations.

Their ideas about God are related more to whether time really exists, and that we all turn to God when we feel the need to. IE... God to me, exists within me and when I find Him he is mine alone. Everyone has their own God they subscribe to, so in my mind there is no Universal God.

Einstein understood this to an extent, Hawkings thought that quantum physics is the answer to our need of understanding the truth.

Watch that movie, it'll blow your mind.
 
The only gods I subscribe to are the rugby gods. Before every game I pray to Webb Ellis and George Nepia.
 
there is a god, there is a creator, that is without any doubt, and should not be doubted or questioned.
[/b]

Do smeg off.



Another of my many pondering about religion - what makes any of you thinks 'God' would want to be worshipped?

If this supernatural being is all powerful, why should he be so self indulgent as to actually want the praise of some insignificant fleshy beings who rely on him for their very existence.

Surely if he created the Universe, then the big guy has better things to do than listen to mere mortals saying the same things over and over again, asking him for forgiveness, favours etc.

Why should he care about any individual? What could he possibly get out of it?
 
Absolutely. I have to agree with you there Webby. Frankly people do get caught up in praying for good things to happen that they don't actually think about that. God probably doesn't care in most cases.


But, what I find quite incorrect is this. People seem so desperate to be well, to get a nice present for Christmas, for an enemy to die, etc that they forget to say thankyou if and when it happens. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but do we not teach kids and heck, sometimes adults to be polite and say please and THANKYOU to people who help them or doing something for them? Why should a god be any different?

This view is purely of the Christian world from the inside (sort of).

To the best of my knowledge though, Muslims pray many times a day, mostly to say thanks. Now this religion may be criticised for being to extreme, but if they still are polite to their god then it surely a more respectful religion than Christianity.
 
That's why there has always been so much violence regarding religion, extremists cannot bring themselves to even contemplate that anyone's religion but their own is correct.

But that my friend is quite simply their own belief. That their religion is the one right one. Wars certainly have been fought over religion, but no religion can be right for everyone. It depends on the perosn.

The people that do not recognise the above statement annoy me greatly. For any person to rule out any religion other than their's as the right one is ludicrous, because not everyone is the same.
[/b]
no religion can be right for everyone. It depends on the perosn.
Why not? Is gravity not absolute? Why can't something be absolutely true? Since when is truth objective? If religion is true, and their is a creator, and this creator has certain requirements, then there is only one way to meet these requirements and please this creator.
You can look at the whole of history and see how people have used religion to bring about a desired effect. Religious Faith is something that can unify people, and therefore the power can be greatly abused. Unfortunately you can't blame the faith, you can only blame those who manipulated and those who were manipulated.
There are absolutes in this world. Either I'm absolutely right about my faith, or I'm absolutely wrong. There is no inbetween. This does not give me the right to be a ******* about it, though.
 
Absolutely. I have to agree with you there Webby. Frankly people do get caught up in praying for good things to happen that they don't actually think about that. God probably doesn't care in most cases.


But, what I find quite incorrect is this. People seem so desperate to be well, to get a nice present for Christmas, for an enemy to die, etc that they forget to say thankyou if and when it happens. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but do we not teach kids and heck, sometimes adults to be polite and say please and THANKYOU to people who help them or doing something for them? Why should a god be any different?

This view is purely of the Christian world from the inside (sort of).

To the best of my knowledge though, Muslims pray many times a day, mostly to say thanks. Now this religion may be criticised for being to extreme, but if they still are polite to their god then it surely a more respectful religion than Christianity.
[/b]
No, just no.
 
Their ideas about God are related more to whether time really exists, and that we all turn to God when we feel the need to. IE... God to me, exists within me and when I find Him he is mine alone. Everyone has their own God they subscribe to, so in my mind there is no Universal God. [/b]

Sounds a bit, err ... French. And my faith in the French tends to get abused. ********!
 
Religion is the cause of every war, we would be better off without it!!!
[/b]
haha yeah religion is the cause of war. The "Iraq War" is based purely on religion and not oil and power and greed. The vietnam war had nothing to do with politics, it was all religion. - oh, and i was being sarcastic. What you said there was easily in the top 5 stupidest things you have ever said.

There is a south park episode that was recently shown in America that deals with that exact idea. No religion = no war. They show that no matter what, people will fight and religion has nothing to do with it
 
<div class='quotemain'>
Religion is the cause of every war, we would be better off without it!!!
[/b]
haha yeah religion is the cause of war. The "Iraq War" is based purely on religion and not oil and power and greed. The vietnam war had nothing to do with politics, it was all religion. - oh, and i was being sarcastic. What you said there was easily in the top 5 stupidest things you have ever said.

There is a south park episode that was recently shown in America that deals with that exact idea. No religion = no war. They show that no matter what, people will fight and religion has nothing to do with it
[/b][/quote]
Religion is a vehicle, an excuse. The whole N.Ireland thing isn't so much Catholic v. Protestant as it is Irish v. English. The English King used religion for his dirty work, and we're still reaping the harvest.
The Christian Bible as well as most world religions actually preach peace, forgiveness and redemption. It's we (mankind) that muck it up and make it political.
By the way, I'm posting a religious thread whilst intoxicated...mom and dad would be so proud...and I still make more sense than your rubbish excuse to blame the almighty for the **** man has started.
 
<div class='quotemain'>
But that my friend is quite simply their own belief. That their religion is the one right one. Wars certainly have been fought over religion, but no religion can be right for everyone. It depends on the perosn.
[/b]
no religion can be right for everyone. It depends on the perosn.
Why not? Is gravity not absolute? Why can't something be absolutely true? Since when is truth objective? If religion is true, and their is a creator, and this creator has certain requirements, then there is only one way to meet these requirements and please this creator.

There are absolutes in this world. Either I'm absolutely right about my faith, or I'm absolutely wrong. There is no inbetween. This does not give me the right to be a ******* about it, though.
[/quote]

Gravity is supposedly absolute. People say that this is definately what makes us stay on the planet, it's what pulls us down, so we don't float out into space - they claim this to be fact. But, this is not absolute fact. This is a THEORY (albeit a good one) based on a series of scientific fact. Every sensible person knows that this is almost certainly correct and they take it for granted - including me.

Religion, however is a different thing all together. If a person KNOWS they are absolutely right about their faith, then good for them. Their faith, to them is right and is right for them. Other people believe different things. Religion isn't as common as the theory of gravity. Nearly everyone recognises the theory of gravity as a reasonable suggestion that is probably right. Religion is quite the opposite however. Not everyone believes in the same faith and thus, that is why there are more than one in the world. Chrisitanity has many, many denominations alone. Just out of curiousity... what is your denomination O'Rothlain? Anyway, back on topic: Gravity is an absolute becasue nearly everyone believes the theory. Religion is not, because belief is spread among many different numbers of people and, besides no one will ever know which religion is the correct one. Not in this life anyway!!

You can look at the whole of history and see how people have used religion to bring about a desired effect. Religious Faith is something that can unify people, and therefore the power can be greatly abused. Unfortunately you can't blame the faith, you can only blame those who manipulated and those who were manipulated.[/b]
I really have to agree with you on this one though. Religion can unify different groups of people and they stand as one with a common belief. Yes, it certainly can be abused greatly as well. And no, you can't blame faith - and I certainly don't - but it is those who have manipulated and have been manipulated that declare an act in the name of religion and thus people of other faiths criticise the particular one that committed the act.

With ONE belief or faith in the world then there would almost certainly be no conflict, but there is no perfect world and there never will be, so we can't seriously think that this will one day happen. No, we'll just have to live with the vast array of religions and just hope that people will begin to realise that it is not right to attack faiths other than their own.








The above text is an extract from my soon to be released book, ***led: Which Faith Is Right?
I do hope that one day this book will help unify all people of all religions and show that they shouldn't fight over which faith is right. B)
 
'Absolute truth'... hmmm, yeah not with religion. I'd argue that there could be an absolute truth with certain simple and concrete things (i.e. the statement "this tree is a tree"), but even that is highly subjective to anybody who's done a little philosophy. There is no way you can prove/disprove the existance of god, so to start talking about 'absolute truths' is nothing short of self assuring dellusion.

As for "religion being the cause of all war"... well no, but it certainly does help mobilise people when you tell them (and they believe you) that they're fighting "god's cause", but then again so does nationalism.
 
<div class='quotemain'>
Religion is the cause of every war, we would be better off without it!!!
[/b]
haha yeah religion is the cause of war. The "Iraq War" is based purely on religion and not oil and power and greed. The vietnam war had nothing to do with politics, it was all religion. - oh, and i was being sarcastic. What you said there was easily in the top 5 stupidest things you have ever said.

There is a south park episode that was recently shown in America that deals with that exact idea. No religion = no war. They show that no matter what, people will fight and religion has nothing to do with it
[/b][/quote]

Humans being humans, we will always find something to fight over, that is almost certain.

However IT IS MY PERSONAL OPINION that religion as a concept has caused more problems than it has solved. For every one person that has found strength in having something to believe, how many countless others have been killed as a direct result of religious conflict?

I think the answer is probably quite a few.
 
'Absolute truth'... hmmm, yeah not with religion. I'd argue that there could be an absolute truth with certain simple and concrete things (i.e. the statement "this tree is a tree"), but even that is highly subjective to anybody who's done a little philosophy. There is no way you can prove/disprove the existance of god, so to start talking about 'absolute truths' is nothing short of self assuring dellusion.

As for "religion being the cause of all war"... well no, but it certainly does help mobilise people when you tell them (and they believe you) that they're fighting "god's cause", but then again so does nationalism.
[/b]

What I'm not saying is that I'm absolutely right. I'm not going to get into a debate about my religious views vs. someone elses religious views. What I am saying is that there can only be one (geez...sounds like I've watched the highlander one too many times). If there is a God, and He has set forth a way of redemption/enlightenment/spiritual perfection, then there is only one way. Only one of our world religions could be absolutely true.
Multiple religions couldn't be true. It's a lovely idea, and it's the pacifistic, no-balls way of approaching Faith. I'm not worried about offending someone for saying that I believe I'm absolutely right. Nor, am I offended by someone else making the same claims.
 

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