Reds v British and Irish Lions (08/06/13)

[TommyVercetti]

My back-row right now on form would be:

6 SOB
8 Heaslip
9 Tipuric

20 Croft

Warburton as captain is looking an increasingly poor choice. It will be a travesty if he starts over Tipuric if they both keep up their current form. Should have been POC or BOD all along, i.e. pretty much nailed on starters because they are consistently class players who's form doesn't dip!

Tipuric is twice the player Warburton is at the moment. Not even remotely close between the two. The latter better improve fast.

 

[dasNdanger]

A bit disappointed the Reds didn't win - would have enjoyed the upset. Shame about Bowe, too.


das

 

[dullonien]

So it was just me that thought that Warburton had a pretty decent return from injury? He wasn't as dominant as Tipuric or SOB, but the opposition was way, way stronger. He was relatively quiet at the breakdown, only making 1 or 2 turnovers, but I thought his support and link play was excellent, and his carrying was decent. Unlucky not to score being the only one supporting North's break, I don't see how the TMO disallowed that try tbh.

Otherwise, I thought Lydiate had an industrious display, tackling like only he can, and hitting a hell of a lot of rucks. The front row all went well imo, with the set pieces being a big positive.

I thought the locks were decent. Both were effective in the lineout on own through and on the oppositon throw. Was maybe hoping for a little more around the field.

Faletau had a mixed game. He did some things well, but didn't have a big enough impact on the game, and knocked the ball on too often.

In the backs, Youngs had a good game. His sniping caused a lot of damage, and he scored a crucial try. Farrell did some things well, but his kicking from hand left a lot to be desired, especially his up n' unders/cross field kicks. Wasn't too impressed with either centre, although some of Davies' spot tackling was excellent and to be fair Tuilagi wasn't on long enough. Cuthbert had a very average game despite trying hard. Bowe started well again, but didn't keep it going. Hopefully he's not badly injured, same with Tuilagi. Hogg really needs to make better decisions as to when to counter. He was caught numerous times behind his support players today. Maybe it was a lack of work by those support players to get back behind him, I don't know, but regardless he needs to identify this and kick instead.

North had a huge impact in attack. That break that lead to a should have been try for Warbs was top drawer. He needs to watch his width in defence. Both he and Cuthbert were caught a little narrow numerous times.

Overall, a bit of a sluggish game, but the kind of tough match that will help the Lions in the long run.

 

[Jbobo]

My test team after 3 matches...still far too early to tell with at least 9 players. Players in bold, should be nailed on to be on the field (if not the same position) for me.

1. Vunipola
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. POC
6. O' Brian
7. J Tipuric
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. North
15. Halfpenny

Very nearly went for Faletau over Heaslip, Halfpenny at 11 with Hogg at 15, Best for hibbard, Tuilagi for Roberts, AW jones for Gray.

 

[McTallshort]

My test team after 3 matches...still far too early to tell with at least 9 players. Players in bold, should be nailed on to be on the field (if not the same position) for me.

1. Vunipola
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. POC
6. O' Brian
7. J Tipuric
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. North
15. Halfpenny

Very nearly went for Faletau over Heaslip, Halfpenny at 11 with Hogg at 15, Best for hibbard, Tuilagi for Roberts, AW jones for Gray.

Cuthbert? is that because we have little choice now with Bowe out.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

So it was just me that thought that Warburton had a pretty decent return from injury? He wasn't as dominant as Tipuric or SOB, but the opposition was way, way stronger. He was relatively quiet at the breakdown, only making 1 or 2 turnovers, but I thought his support and link play was excellent, and his carrying was decent. Unlucky not to score being the only one supporting North's break, I don't see how the TMO disallowed that try tbh.

Otherwise, I thought Lydiate had an industrious display, tackling like only he can, and hitting a hell of a lot of rucks. The front row all went well imo, with the set pieces being a big positive.

I thought the locks were decent. Both were effective in the lineout on own through and on the oppositon throw. Was maybe hoping for a little more around the field.

Faletau had a mixed game. He did some things well, but didn't have a big enough impact on the game, and knocked the ball on too often.

In the backs, Youngs had a good game. His sniping caused a lot of damage, and he scored a crucial try. Farrell did some things well, but his kicking from hand left a lot to be desired, especially his up n' unders/cross field kicks. Wasn't too impressed with either centre, although some of Davies' spot tackling was excellent and to be fair Tuilagi wasn't on long enough. Cuthbert had a very average game despite trying hard. Bowe started well again, but didn't keep it going. Hopefully he's not badly injured, same with Tuilagi. Hogg really needs to make better decisions as to when to counter. He was caught numerous times behind his support players today. Maybe it was a lack of work by those support players to get back behind him, I don't know, but regardless he needs to identify this and kick instead.

North had a huge impact in attack. That break that lead to a should have been try for Warbs was top drawer. He needs to watch his width in defence. Both he and Cuthbert were caught a little narrow numerous times.

Overall, a bit of a sluggish game, but the kind of tough match that will help the Lions in the long run.

True, but you can't have it both ways. You can't talk about Halfpenny's kicking vs the Force and say it doesn't matter that there was no pressure, and then claim the reason Warburton wasn't as good was because of the opposition (and therefore more pressure on his head). Not to mention he must have gave away at least a good few penalties.

 

[Tony Manx]

True, but you can't have it both ways. You can't talk about Halfpenny's kicking vs the Force and say it doesn't matter that there was no pressure, and then claim the reason Warburton wasn't as good was because of the opposition (and therefore more pressure on his head). Not to mention he must have gave away at least a good few penalties.

You are talking apples and oranges......there is undoubted "pressure" on a kicker whatever the game is as he has time to think and consider his kicking and, as I have said earlier, if he gets one his confidence goes up and the reverese is true....and the more he gets over, the less pressure etc

Warburton's "pressure" is different and one over which he has little to no control and it is not "pressure" but is about the comparative standard of the oppositon he was facing rather than previous players facing the BaaBaas and the Force.....

So, in this example, he can have it both ways!!

 

[dullonien]

True, but you can't have it both ways. You can't talk about Halfpenny's kicking vs the Force and say it doesn't matter that there was no pressure, and then claim the reason Warburton wasn't as good was because of the opposition (and therefore more pressure on his head). Not to mention he must have gave away at least a good few penalties.

I did mention the lack of pressure on Halfpenny's kicking. Don't make out that you weren't impressed with Halfpenny's kicking either .

Yeah the penalties were a little worrying, as was his attempted tackle on Morahan, but overall I thought he showed more positives than negatives in his game.

 

[big ginger 8]

Woulds say Warburton was about a 4/10 certainly not a good enough performance that says he should be ahead of Tipuric or SO'B given their games so far and their respective years.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

I did mention the lack of pressure on Halfpenny's kicking. Don't make out that you weren't impressed with Halfpenny's kicking either .

Yeah the penalties were a little worrying, as was his attempted tackle on Morahan, but overall I thought he showed more positives than negatives in his game.

Oh I was, I thought it was absolutely incredible! But he wouldn't have got all 11 if that was the first test at least we don't have to worry about kickers now! (not like we ever did worry).

For the second part, maybe I'd agree - for someone coming back from form / injury he's doing well. For a Lions test captain? I'm pretty worried to be honest.

You are talking apples and oranges......there is undoubted "pressure" on a kicker whatever the game is as he has time to think and consider his kicking and, as I have said earlier, if he gets one his confidence goes up and the reverese is true....and the more he gets over, the less pressure etc

Warburton's "pressure" is different and one over which he has little to no control and it is not "pressure" but is about the comparative standard of the oppositon he was facing rather than previous players facing the BaaBaas and the Force.....

So, in this example, he can have it both ways!!

Of course he does, he's the captain, he's the one you want to keep a cool head under these circumstances. But I'm not 100% sure I get what you're saying.


Did anyone else not think Gatland left it very late to bring on the subs?

 

[PutPutPut]

Poorest performance of the tour thus far, but considering the strength of the team and the opposition it was to be expected. The test team is starting to take place imo. One of Roberts and Tuilagi to partner O'Driscoll in the midfield, most of the back three is filled and the props are being decided sort of by default. In my mind on the back row, scrum half and one lock spot are really up for grabs at this point.

 

[dullonien]

Woulds say Warburton was about a 4/10 certainly not a good enough performance that says he should be ahead of Tipuric or SO'B given their games so far and their respective years.

4/10! I'd give him a 6 personally. No he didn't do enough to put him ahead of Tips or SOB yet, but he was far from that poor!

 

[big ginger 8]

4/10! I'd give him a 6 personally. No he didn't do enough to put him ahead of Tips or SOB yet, but he was far from that poor!

Ah he was apart from supporting North he didn't really do anything for my mind. I like Warburton I hyped him a lot on his emergence to people who'd never heard of him and he seems a nice guy but his performance wasn't good enough.

By the way my scale works as 5/10 is average 4/10 is just below average 6/10 is just above average and I felt he was below average.

 

[coonor]

I think people are overstating Warburtons "poor" performance. In some ways it would appear the people on here are actually exaggerating his underperformance to highlight the continued point of view that he shouldnt be starting the tests despite being captain.

Having said that, Warbutons "relative" performance is what is key. 7 is a highly competetive position with both SOB and Tipuric laying down irrefutable claims to the jersey. As with all other players, the comparison in their performance is inevitable. To that end regardless of Warburton's performance, the unquestionable fact that both Tipuric and SOB, albeit against weaker opposition, performed to a higher standard surely places them in higher regard to start the first test.

 

[PutPutPut]

I think people are overstating Warburtons "poor" performance. In some ways it would appear the people on here are actually exaggerating his underperformance to highlight the continued point of view that he shouldnt be starting the tests despite being captain.

Having said that, Warbutons "relative" performance is what is key. 7 is a highly competetive position with both SOB and Tipuric laying irrefutable claims to the jersey. As with all other players, the comparison in their performance is inevitable. To that end regardless of Warburton's performance, the unquestionable fact that both Tipuric and SOB, albeit against weaker opposition, surely places them in higher regard to start the first test.

Err, how can both of them have laid irrefutable claims?

 

[coonor]

Err, how can both of them have laid irrefutable claims?

You cannot deny both Tipuric and SOB have laid claims to the jersey I.e it is irrefutable. I'm not saying that they are both unchallengeable claims.

 

[Tony Manx]

But I'm not 100% sure I get what you're saying.

Sorry about that, I will try and be more lucid......you are comparing Halfpenny (or a golfer), to Warburton (or a footballer).

A golfer has to play his shots and has total control over that area of his game depending on his skill and temprement. The better he hits his shots, the more confidence he gets etc...for example, McIlroy, undoubtably the best technical golfer in the world for his age, is at present totally devoid of any confidence partly due to not playing very well and maybe due to his equipment but who knows? However, when he gets his confidence back, by hitting good shots, he will be the best in the world again and has proved he can handle the "pressure" at the very top. Halfpenny has huge confidence from his kicking during the last season and because he is in charge of his kicking he can control the pressure he is feeling if he has the right temprement which he does.

A football player, can play only as well as his oppostion allows and as such will inevitably stand out more against a fifth divison team as opposed to one playing against a first division team...Warburton was today playing a second division team whilst those facing BaaBaas and Force were playing fourth or even fifth division! You cannot compare rugby player playing against a fourth/fifth division team with one playing a higher quality opposition fairly and need to see them playing relatively equal level oppostion to make fair comparison

Hope this is clearer?

 

[dullonien]

You might need to re-watch the game BG8. Warburton did a hell of a lot of work in that match. He was everywhere around the pitch, both in defence, at the ruck, where he was first Lion there most of the time to clear out or challenge for the ball, and in attack, linking the play. I sometimes think that unless he's making 5 turnovers a game, people think he's having a bad game.

A little like the criticisms of Heaslip in that way, the hard work sometimes goes unnoticed. I've probably been guilty of being overly critical of Heaslip in the recent past as well, so I'm not having a proper dig here, but I thought Warburton today was better than average.

 

[Tony Manx]

You might need to re-watch the game BG8. Warburton did a hell of a lot of work in that match. He was everywhere around the pitch, both in defence, at the ruck, where he was first Lion there most of the time to clear out or challenge for the ball, and in attack, linking the play. I sometimes think that unless he's making 5 turnovers a game, people think he's having a bad game.

A little like the criticisms of Heaslip in that way, the hard work sometimes goes unnoticed. I've probably been guilty of being overly critical of Heaslip in the recent past as well, so I'm not having a proper dig here, but I thought Warburton today was better than average.

I would support that and also state that Gatland chose him because he rates him so it is more up the "challengers" to change Gatland's mind and Warburton, who commenced this tour as the guaranteed starter, to lose his confidence which would be a big call.....until "his challengers" are seen against teams of equal levels to the Reds, I do not think they will change Gatland's mind !!

 

[Groundhog]

Tommy Bowe is out. **** that.