RBS 6 Nations - England vs Wales - 25/02/2012, 16:00

[Toby Faletau-Jones]

There's definitely some inconsistency in reasoning; you've picked AWJ despite being out for ages, and you said you haven't really considered Tuilagi because he's been out for ages. Similarly you've gone with gethin despite his absences
Also, Foden is a better 15 than Halfpenny, no two ways about it.

I want to protest more but what stops me from doing so is the form of some of englands best players and the fact that some players are untested at this level. You can't argue with form, but if form was diferent, lots of your choices could have gone the other way. In my opinion Croft on form is someone I would have over Lydiate. Choosing Ryan Jones over Lawes is sheer madness, the versatility thing doesn't usually come into play when people do these face-offs.

lol wut
Foden's very good, quick and has a good step, but other than that... His tackling is sometimes poor as shown by the WC 1/4 final against France. You're right about Lawes though i'd pick him over Ryan or Alun-wyn Jones anyday, and he has to be in contention for a lions shirt with the paddys 2nd row.


Anyway my comparison is as below:
01 AlexCorbisiero v Gethin Jenkins
02 Dylan Hartley v Ken Owens
03 Dan Cole v Adam Jones (Both good scrummagers, i believe, but Adam based on his work-rate, and experience)
04 Mouritz Botha v Alun Wyn Jones
05 Geoff Parling v Ian Evans
06 Tom Croft v Dan Lydiate
07 Chris Robshaw v Sam Warburton
08 Ben Morgan v Toby Faletau

09 Lee Dickson v Mike Phillips
10 Owen Farrell v Rhys Priestland
11 Chris Ashton v George North
12 Brad Barritt v Jamie Roberts
13 Manu Tuilagi v Jon Davies
14 David Strettle v Alex Cuthbert
15 Ben Foden v Leigh Halfpenny

16 Rob Webber v Richard Hibbard (I don't know anything about Webber, so it's unfair to comment)
17 Matt Stevens v Paul James
18 Courtney Lawes v Ryan Jones
19 Phill Dowson v Justin Tipuric
20 Ben Youngs v Lloyd Williams
21 Toby Flood v James Hook (By a mile)
22 Chris Hodgson v Scott Williams (Showed he's out of his depth against Australia in December)

That isn't a bias view, and given a year or two i would expect a lot of both names highlighted as England get better. For me though, Wales' bench is weak, weak to the extent that most of them are not big match players, hence they will probably never get used on Saturday. Gatland needs to get Peel back, the likes of Andy Powell, and Lee Byrne, because Scott Williams, and Lloyd Williams to name some only do well against the likes Fiji, Namibia. I can also think of better players than perhaps half of the bench. My knowledge though may not be as great as some of yours because of my lack of recemt exposure to UK rugby.

 

[cyRil]

That isn't a bias view, and given a year or two i would expect a lot of both names highlighted as England get better. For me though, Wales' bench is weak, weak to the extent that most of them are not big match players, hence they will probably never get used on Saturday. Gatland needs to get Peel back, the likes of Andy Powell, and Lee Byrne, because Scott Williams, and Lloyd Williams to name some only do well against the likes Fiji, Namibia. I can also think of better players than perhaps half of the bench. My knowledge though may not be as great as some of yours because of my location away from EU rugby.

Scott and Lloyd Williams are both 20 and both will be quality players. Wouldn't say the bench was particularly weak as you say. James is decent back up, Hibbard would have been our no. 1 hooker at the World Cup had he not been injured, Ryan's been on fire recently and I'm gutted he's been benched, Tipuric - I would argue - tipped the game our way against Ireland with 2 quality line-out wins and a brilliant midfield turnover and Hooky's... well, Hooky.
Weak, be buggered!

 

[Toby Faletau-Jones]

Scott and Lloyd Williams are both 20 and both will be quality players. Wouldn't say the bench was particularly weak as you say. James is decent back up, Hibbard would have been our no. 1 hooker at the World Cup had he not been injured, Ryan's been on fire recently and I'm gutted he's been benched, Tipuric - I would argue - tipped the game our way against Ireland with 2 quality line-out wins and a brilliant midfield turnover and Hooky's... well, Hooky.
Weak, be buggered!

I agree in regards to Tipuric and Jones. Jones has been great, and rediscovered his form, which years ago saw him as one of the most promising backrowers in the UK. However, his prime position is in the backrow, and lets be honest he isn't our answer to the lineouts when compared to the Wyn Jones (God help us), and i can't see him taking Lydiates postion, because Lydiate brings grunt, and aggressiveness especially with his tackling, something Ryan can do but not to the same standard. In particular, I think Lydiate has been key to our success in the past, his exceptional work-rate especially through his tackling has reliefed Warburton and Toby Jones of some of the work, in which they can do their jobs to their world class standard. I think anyone of those three missing would severely affect our chances, as you could see without Warburton when against the Ozzies in the WC. Toby stood no chance against David Pocock, perhaps the best openside in the world ahead of Mccaw at the moment. Tipuric on the other hand had a fantastic game against Ireland, and unless the next Richie Mccaw (Fat chance) arises in Wales, i can't see him being lower than number 2 for the 7 shirt, but surely Sam is the man for the 7.

 

[bushytop]

Scott and Lloyd Williams are both 20 and both will be quality players. Wouldn't say the bench was particularly weak as you say. James is decent back up, Hibbard would have been our no. 1 hooker at the World Cup had he not been injured, Ryan's been on fire recently and I'm gutted he's been benched, Tipuric - I would argue - tipped the game our way against Ireland with 2 quality line-out wins and a brilliant midfield turnover and Hooky's... well, Hooky.
Weak, be buggered!

Agreed, I believe our bench is strong. Lloyd Williams will be world class and Scott Williams has only had one quiet game in all the games I've seen him involved with. Would like to see both start against Italy. Tipuric would get in the England starting XV imo. Ryan does a more than admirable job across the back-five. Hibbard is bit wobbly on his throwing (but which welsh hooker isn't) but performs well in the scrum, loose and breakdown... and Hook covers 4 back positions at a high quality level.

Not just the bench though, Shingler, Beck and Byrne are all quality, on good form and i'd like to see these get some game time against Italy also.

All in all, the strength in depth within the Wales set up right now is as good as I have ever seen it.

 

[dullonien]

There's definitely some inconsistency in reasoning; you've picked AWJ despite being out for ages, and you said you haven't really considered Tuilagi because he's been out for ages. Similarly you've gone with gethin despite his absences
Also, Foden is a better 15 than Halfpenny, no two ways about it.

I want to protest more but what stops me from doing so is the form of some of englands best players and the fact that some players are untested at this level. You can't argue with form, but if form was diferent, lots of your choices could have gone the other way. In my opinion Croft on form is someone I would have over Lydiate. Choosing Ryan Jones over Lawes is sheer madness, the versatility thing doesn't usually come into play when people do these face-offs.

Yeh, probably is some inconsistencies. I'll try to explain my reasoning though. I went for AWJ over Botha, because despite just returning from injury there's a gulf of class between the two at international level and that outweighs the injury concern imo. If Lawes was starting against Ian Evans for example I'd go for Lawes despite injury. As for Tuilagi, his injury comes more into play because he's up against the form 13 of the tournament, so there's smaller margins. Would anyone seriously pick Corbs over Gethin Jenkins, regardless of small ****les?

I beg to differ between Foden and Halfpenny. Foden't international form hasn't been great lately, and his last game against Italy he made two huge blunders that almost cost England the game. Halfpenny's been a revelation at fullback, and is up there with Foden and Kearney as best fullback in the home nations. Halfpenny has very few weaknesses, and is a hugely reliable and consistent. On a good day, both are about equal imo, taking in to account their form and Halfpenny should probably come out on top.

Croft has been a great player, but he hasn't shown it for three years. Lydiate is a workhorse that every team needs. There really isn't a debate at the moment. Most England supporters want to see Robshaw at 6 anyway, and that would be a closer battle, but alas Lancaster has got it wrong.

I don't see how chosing Ryan Jones over Lawes is madness. Ryan Jones is in great form, probably the best he's been since 2008. We've gotta remember that we're comparing players on the bench, so versatility does come into things here. Ryan Jones covers lost of positions which can be invaluable on the day (same with Hook). Lawes is yet to live up to his hype yet imo. I don't think he'll be a starting Lion player unless he can show more of his club form on the international stage. I'd have O'Connell, Grey, Alun-Wyn Jones and Charteris ahead of him.

 

[Saintjay]

Englands secret weapon Ben Morgan if anyone can do a decent analysis of how to beat the Scarlets players it's him. Know your enemy as they say .

 

[j'nuh]

Guys, you can't just compare players in their respective numbers to decide which team is better.

For one, little positional changes can change which team is seen as better. For example,
11. North 14. Ashton vs. 11. JSD 14. Banahan
11. North 14. Ashton vs. 11. Banahan 14. JSD
Just by switching Banahan and JSD's wing, I've made the second team seem equal to the first. (Even though the wingers on the left are clearly better than those on the right.)

Similarly, I think:
6. Croft 7. Robshaw vs. 6. Lydiate 7. Warburton
6. Robshaw 7. Croft vs. 6. Lydiate 7. Warburton

For what it's worth, I think Wales have the better players all-round.

Also, I hope we start Lawes and Tuilagi. Both have played full games for their clubs, both would have played full games for their clubs this coming weekend had they not been picked for England, and both are big improvements on their XV counterparts, and we're going to need our best players on the pitch to stand any chance against Wales. Dickson and Morgan clearly need to be in.

And weighing in on the Davies-Tuilagi argument, Davies is playing for a very good Welsh side. I'm a fan of his, but 13s are one of the best positions to look good in if your team is getting the meters (also, since it's the channel through which many attacks come, it's a position that a player can look bad in if their team is being dominated). In the WC, Tuilagi has shown that he can look classy in a side playing crap rugby. He managed to make the meters and great angles from 13 despite a 10 standing deep enough to make it nearly impossible to break the gainline. I'd prefer Tuilagi in my team, although Davies is a very good 13.

I beg to differ between Foden and Halfpenny. Foden't international form hasn't been great lately, and his last game against Italy he made two huge blunders that almost cost England the game. Halfpenny's been a revelation at fullback, and is up there with Foden and Kearney as best fullback in the home nations. Halfpenny has very few weaknesses, and is a hugely reliable and consistent. On a good day, both are about equal imo, taking in to account their form and Halfpenny should probably come out on top.

Foden doesn't have the luxury of playing for a team which is doing well and playing to their strengths. Foden is never going to look good whilst England continue with this kicking game - I'd rather Brown was picked if we continued to play this way. But put Foden in a side like NZ, Australia, Wales etc. and his class will be evident.

 

[Dicey]

Tuilagi is key to stopping the Welsh midfield imo .Have watched Ireland / Wales game on 3 occassions now ,the Irish back line was exposed without ODriscol and without Tuilagi I would believe the Welsh would be targetting the English midfield.

 

[bushytop]

If Tuilagi is picked there is going to be some absolutely mammoth collisions. Cant wait to see North come in-field and run an inside line at Manu... unstoppable force against an immoveable object - its like a frickin monster movie.

I'm far too excited considering its only Wednesday afternoon.

 

[Stoney21]

just wondered what peoples thoughts are on Tuilagi's defence. clearly in attack he can bust through tackles when cutting the right angle and will be a threat to wales. i seem to remember him missing tackles in the world cup. could this count againts him?

 

[welsh wizard]

England taking there time naming this squad ain't they? i read it was supposed to be this morning

 

[TRF_Cymro]

England taking there time naming this squad ain't they? i read it was supposed to be this morning

Wales hardly are in a position to moan. We tend to delay when we can.

 

[cyRil]

England taking there time naming this squad ain't they? i read it was supposed to be this morning

They said on Monday that they weren't naming the team til Thursday so chill ew beans!

 

[Sir-Fon]

England taking there time naming this squad ain't they? i read it was supposed to be this morning

It's tomorrow

I see it's your first post don't be deterred from posting again more often than not you will get a straight answer.

 

[B10]

We always release the team on thursday. Don't know why but it does no harm.

 

[Draggs]

just wondered what peoples thoughts are on Tuilagi's defence. clearly in attack he can bust through tackles when cutting the right angle and will be a threat to wales. i seem to remember him missing tackles in the world cup. could this count againts him?

Neither Tuilagi nor Jonathan Davies are great defenders. Given Wales' tendency to attack from 12 through midfield, this might be an advantage for us. I haven't seen England's attack pattern too much, apart from using blitz defence from the 10 to score . North also floats around outside centre in attack, so provided Roberts is able to be our main force for two+ phases, we can attack from outside centre on multiple phases.

 

[Saintjay]

Neither Tuilagi nor Jonathan Davies are great defenders. Given Wales' tendency to attack from 12 through midfield, this might be an advantage for us. I haven't seen England's attack pattern too much, apart from using blitz defence from the 10 to score . North also floats around outside centre in attack, so provided Roberts is able to be our main force for two+ phases, we can attack from outside centre on multiple phases.

Roberts and Davies were the midfield pairing when we beat Wales in the last six nations.

 

[Draggs]

Roberts and Davies were the midfield pairing when we beat Wales in the last six nations.

Yes, I am aware of that. Davies was at second five though. Roberts is a much better 12 (at least in the way Wales use him) and is key to our attack. I don't think Davies can do the same role as Roberts (take the ball flat from Priestland and gain the ground he does, drawing in the defence).

 

[dullonien]

Both are in much better form this season aswell. Draggs, why do you say that Jon Davies isn't a great defender? He's always seemed very solid to me, and I always remember that tackle he put in on a Leinster forward a while ago, where he picked him up and drove him back 15m.

 

[Saintjay]

Yes, I am aware of that. Davies was at second five though. Roberts is a much better 12 (at least in the way Wales use him) and is key to our attack. I don't think Davies can do the same role as Roberts (take the ball flat from Priestland and gain the ground he does, drawing in the defence).

So you will be aware of Roberts being at 12 and Davies at 13 when we won in August as well