RaboDirect Pro 12 Final - Leinster vs Ospreys - 27/05/2012

[big ginger 8]

Beck would make the Leinster backs ahead of D'Arcy, and Dirksen ahead of an out of position McFadden

on the bench, Bevington would be ahead of Healy/McGrath, he would probably start for Ireland, he's very impressive

Get away Duck Bevington wouldn't be ahead of Healy nowhere near. Beck probably is better than D'arcy but I'd contend about Dirksen vs McFadden.

 

[coonor]

Beck would make the Leinster backs ahead of D'Arcy, and Dirksen ahead of an out of position McFadden

on the bench, Bevington would be ahead of Healy/McGrath, he would probably start for Ireland, he's very impressive

I agree that Beck would be ahead of Darcy that's why i never said that Leinster were superior in every position in the backs, however the positions where they are superior, which is most back position is highly significant. For example the difference between BOD v Bishop and Sexton v Biggar is quite high.

In regards to Healy and Bevington.... Are you being serious? I'd rather have Healy playing for us than James, let alone Bevington. In fact I'd rather have HVDM playing than Bevington or James!

 

[munstermuffin]

Rhys Ruddock really gone down pecking order

 

[coonor]

Rhys Ruddock really gone down pecking order

He's injured...

 

[Peat]

All this chat is reminding me of the player comparisons pre-the HC final. Most of us were agreeing that it was fairly even with a slight advantage to Leinster.

That one worked out really well.

 

[dullonien]

Bevington is massively underrated, mainly because he's behind one of the best props in the world in Gethin Jenkins at international level. I've been saying for a while that I think he should be the Ospreys number one looshead, because he offers much more around the pitch, and is decent in the scrum. Paul James' improvement has been impressive mind. I genuinely think Bevington can be as good as Jenkins in a few years. He's already as good a scrummager, and will only improve, whilst he's probably the quickest prop I've seen. But himself around in the tight as well, with some crunching tackles.

However, I wouldn't put him ahead of Healy yet, and that's mainly due to a lack of gametime at both regional and imternational level. Whilst I don't think Healy is as great as BG8 claims, he's still a very good player, especially for Leinster. He's improved his scrummaging to the point that I don't see it as a weakness (he might struggle slightly against the best scrummaging tightheads like Adam, but most props do really), and that's not to be dismissed considering his age. He's a strong carrier, and puts himself about. His hands can let him down on occasion, but that's a minor criticism. I believe Bevington will eventually be a better player, but for now Healy shades it.

As for the backs. I'd have Webb over Reddan, Shane over Nacewa, although Nacewa's an awesome player, so there's very little in it, Beck over D-Arcy and Dirksen over McFadden. McFadden is a decent centre, but Dirksen is a top quality winger. The over three positions, Sexton, BOD and Kearney are significant improvements on their opposition. Biggars recent form puts him a little closer to Sexton that before, but Sexton is world class when playing for Leinster, and Biggarstill has a lot to prove. Bishop's defence is his saving grace, I'd expect him to be able to contain BOD quite well. Fussell was great against Munster, but blows hot and cold, Kearney has simply been immense.

So for me it would be:

Paul James > Heinke van der Merwe
Richard Hibbard > Sean Cronin
Adam Jones > Mike Ross
Alun Wyn Jones > Leo Cullen
Ian Evans > Devin Toner
Ryan Jones > Kevin McLaughlin
Justin Tipuric > Shane Jennings
Joe Bearman < Jamie Heaslip

Rhys Webb >/= Eoin Reddan
Dan Biggar < Isa Nacewa
Shane Williams >/= Isa Nacewa
Ashley Beck > Gordon D'Arcy
Andrew Bishop < Brian O'Driscoll
Hanno Dirksen > Fergus McFadden
Richard Fussell < Rob Kearney

Scott Baldwin < Richardt Strauss
Ryan Bevington < Cian Healy / > Jack McGrath
Aaron Jarvis = Nathan White (Not too clued up on White though, so might easily be better than Jarvis)
James King < Brad Thorn
Tom Smith < Dominic Ryan
Kahn Fotuali'i > John Cooney
Matthew Morgan < Ian Madigan (although Morgan has the talent to be better)
Tom Isaacs < David Kearney

But, ultimately we all know that this means very little. Leinster are a much better team than their individual parts. Just a bit of fun, as I'm bored.

 

[lynam1104]

I'm sorry i haven't read the last tow pages just a quick one before i go to bed. I love how after winning the Heineken Cup we're being written off while i do see the argument here let's remember we did beat Clermont away on our way there so i wouldn't say our pack is weak.

 

[profitius]

So for me it would be:

Paul James > Heinke van der Merwe
Richard Hibbard > Sean Cronin
Adam Jones > Mike Ross
Alun Wyn Jones > Leo Cullen
Ian Evans > Devin Toner
Ryan Jones > Kevin McLaughlin
Justin Tipuric > Shane Jennings
Joe Bearman < Jamie Heaslip

Rhys Webb >/= Eoin Reddan
Dan Biggar < Isa Nacewa
Shane Williams >/= Isa Nacewa
Ashley Beck > Gordon D'Arcy
Andrew Bishop < Brian O'Driscoll
Hanno Dirksen > Fergus McFadden
Richard Fussell < Rob Kearney

Scott Baldwin < Richardt Strauss
Ryan Bevington < Cian Healy / > Jack McGrath
Aaron Jarvis = Nathan White (Not too clued up on White though, so might easily be better than Jarvis)
James King < Brad Thorn
Tom Smith < Dominic Ryan
Kahn Fotuali'i > John Cooney
Matthew Morgan < Ian Madigan (although Morgan has the talent to be better)
Tom Isaacs < David Kearney

But, ultimately we all know that this means very little. Leinster are a much better team than their individual parts. Just a bit of fun, as I'm bored.

You'd think it was the Ospreys who are dominating Europe!

It should be a close enough game. I fancy the O's to score a try or two. You'd think though that Leinster might pull away at the end especially when they unload the bench.

 

[Peat]

In fairness, if Leinster had Healy/Thorn/O'Brien/O'Driscoll/Fitzgerald starting, I think people might be talking them up a little more...

 

[Draggs]

Is it now Bevington v Healy?
We actually had a good few weeks without Cian Healy v the world.

 

[Tony Manx]

Ospreys have no chance and it will be a walk over for Leinster.............. If they turn their minds to it, Leinster are unbeatable at the moment in Europe and Ospreys are in transition maybe in a few years.....?

The best game of the weekend, from a neutral perspective, in Europe should be the Aviva Final which should be so much more close and, hopefully, they will give the ball some air.................................but looking forward to the French games too!

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

A lot has been made in the build up of the fact that the Ospreys beat Leinster twice already this season. I think it's irrelevant. Only 4 Leinster starters from the opening game of the season remain while only 5 remain from the team that lost 2 months ago. By contrast, the Ospreys retain just 8 players who started in their 27-3 victory and 10 from their win in the RDS.

If Leinster have their heads screwed on, the strength of their bench will tell in my opinion. A 7-10 point win for the home team is my prediction.

 

[osullie6]

In fairness, if Leinster had Healy/Thorn/O'Brien/O'Driscoll/Fitzgerald starting, I think people might be talking them up a little more...

Well unless you've moved onto predicting Irish injuries now I think BOD should be good to start.

But I see your point.

Bevington in a year's time will have had a season as Ospreys first choice, and got plenty more caps for Wales

could be a wildcard for the midweek side for the Lions



... and that's why Ireland's scrum is worse than Wales

Paul James is a good scrummager, not the best around the field, but much better than any of Ireland's loosehead scrummagers

I seem to remember the Ospreys dominated Leinster at scrum last time they played

True, but neither Ross or Healy played as they were being rested after the Six Nations. Also most of that dominance was down to White getting injured early on and his replacement Hagan getting destroyed in the scrum, then getting injured and his replacement McGrath also getting schooled.

And even in that game the Ospreys did only win by a point.

I could see it being a tight game though.

 

[dullonien]

You'd think it was the Ospreys who are dominating Europe!

They may have if they'd have had a quality coach like Shmidt.

Ospreys have no chance and it will be a walk over for Leinster.............. If they turn their minds to it, Leinster are unbeatable at the moment in Europe and Ospreys are in transition maybe in a few years.....?

The best game of the weekend, from a neutral perspective, in Europe should be the Aviva Final which should be so much more close and, hopefully, they will give the ball some air.................................but looking forward to the French games too!

You're well off the mark with this. Whilst Leinster deservedly go into this game as favourites, this game will be much closer than the Heineken Cup final. The Ospreys have the personnel and the belief to win this game.

Snoop. Whilst I agree that too much shouldn't be taken from the two Ospreys wins this season in terms of the performances, the belief the Ospreys will take into this game due to those wins (and the final win a couple of years ago) will matter.

 

[Peat]

Well unless you've moved onto predicting Irish injuries now I think BOD should be good to start.

But I see your point.

I, uhm, was testing you!

... I don't like it when I run out of bad news

 

[big ginger 8]

Bevington in a year's time will have had a season as Ospreys first choice, and got plenty more caps for Wales

could be a wildcard for the midweek side for the Lions



... and that's why Ireland's scrum is worse than Wales

Paul James is a good scrummager, not the best around the field, but much better than any of Ireland's loosehead scrummagers

I seem to remember the Ospreys dominated Leinster at scrum last time they played

How many times must you be told. Ospreys dominated so much because Leinster lost the two tightheads to injury and ended up playing a loosehead Jack McGrath at tighthead against as you constantly say one of the best scrums around.

You really need to cop on regards Healy. He is not a poor scrummager. Circa 2010 he was yes in fact he was a pretty **** scrummager. However he has improved incredibly. Last week he dominated John Afoa in the Heineken Cup final for God's sake! He is a key player for Leinster and has had some great performances. He was MotM vs Cardiff and scored two tries. He makes an excellent contribution in the loose. It doesn't matter if you think he's going to be better than him in a year (which if if Healy keeps up his rate of improvement is plain wrong) Bevington is in no way, shape or form a better player than Healy now.

I as well as Coonor would have Healy over James. Of course this must be because of my huge bias towards Healy that I obviously have because I dare say he's a good scrummager. He is not so much a worse scrummager than James and makes a much bigger contribution in the loose. Btw I am someone who thinks a props first focus should be on the scrum as I am a prop who's game revolves around the scrum so don't accuse me of having the wrong attitude to props.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Healy may be much improved but there's absolutely no contest in him vs Adam Jones.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Ospreys have no chance and it will be a walk over for Leinster.............. If they turn their minds to it, Leinster are unbeatable at the moment in Europe and Ospreys are in transition maybe in a few years.....?

The best game of the weekend, from a neutral perspective, in Europe should be the Aviva Final which should be so much more close and, hopefully, they will give the ball some air.................................but looking forward to the French games too!

I literally..........don't know how you can say that, given the team the Sprays have put out and the players starting for Leinster........or at all

 

[big ginger 8]

Healy may be much improved but there's absolutely no contest in him vs Adam Jones.

Are you talking to me Olyy? I never said anything about Healy vs Jones. I'd be happy for Healy just to hold his own against Jones which is the most most props can hope for against him.

 

[big ginger 8]

Leinster have advantages in four areas

1. the coach, Tandy has been a pleasant surprise as a coach, seems to have got the players playing a lot smarter rugby compared to the latter stages of Johnson/Holley, with the exception of a poor game against Aironi, the Ospreys have been playing more fluently and with a better game plan, but Joe Schmidt in my opinion is possibly the best coach in the world, he has pretty much the same squad as Cheika yet Leinster look a much better side with Schmidt

2. the backs, the Ospreys have a few backs on good form, but the quality in the Leinster backs is higher

3. the bench, Leinster have several internationals on the bench who can make an impact and change the game, the Ospreys have several inexperienced players

4. home advantage, obviously

the Ospreys meanwhile only real advantage is the pack, so that will decide how close the Ospreys get



This



I have said Healy improved and is a good player, but he isn't as good a scrummager as Paul James, but has a more all around game

I think Bevington is very good, rather than Healy is bad, there's not much between them apart from experience, Bevington should become a better player when he gets the experience


also in regards to that Ospreys Leinster match, Leinster were doing well with White on, the Ospreys got on top with Hagan on, and then pummelled the scrum with McGrath on



this

Healy does decently normally against most props, but the top operators can still get on top of him, and the Ospreys have one of best in the world

I said Healy is a worse scrummager than James...

Healy is at least very good. As I said at the moment it doesn't matter it how good you think Bevington can be and as you said the only difference (which I don't really agree with) is the experience which Healy has bags more of so I'm guessing at this moment you rate him higher...

It's pointless saying a player is better than another based on his potential. As if the potential isn't realised he's not better yet and he may not realise the potential. It's like me saying Luke McGrath is better than Mike Philips because his potential is better

Oh and Adam Jones is the best tighthead in the world.

Yes the Ospreys started doing well when they went up against Leinster's third choice tighthead.