Prem Attendances on the downward slope?

[stus768]

New Zealand, South Africa & Australia play their international fixtures all over their country - no idea why English rugby doesn't do the same. It would particularly make sense for the games that don't usually sell out at Twickenham like Barbarians, Fiji, Argentina etc.

Money! They own Twickers so get 100% of the revenue. Again as mentioned above short term gains.

 

[stus768]

New Zealand, South Africa & Australia play their international fixtures all over their country - no idea why English rugby doesn't do the same. It would particularly make sense for the games that don't usually sell out at Twickenham like Barbarians, Fiji, Argentina etc.

Money! They own Twickers so get 100% of the revenue. Again as mentioned above short term gains.

 

[Which Tyler]

Money! They own Twickers so get 100% of the revenue. Again as mentioned above short term gains.

Exactly this - it doesn't take a geniour to work it out TBF either.
RFU - owns Twickenham, plays matches at Twickenham - by far the most financially sound union.
ARU & NZRU own no stadium; rent stadia around the country - need hand-outs from the RFU to keep their heads above water financially

 

[RedruthRFC]

Money! They own Twickers so get 100% of the revenue. Again as mentioned above short term gains.

I'm sure you're right about the reasoning. I cynic would also question whether the great and the good would find a trip to the colonies acceptable. Given the inward investment that Twickenham is receiving (IIRC the latest initiative is investing in being able to being the hospitality business in house) I don't see a roadshow any time soon.

While I can see the upside of playing games outside London, I imagine that the effective cost would be surprisingly high given that the RFU would be giving away a piece of a smaller pie rather than (soon) keeping 100% of a bigger pie. If I'm right, you have to ask how much the publicity of bringing internationals to a new market is worth and whether it would be more cost effective to to spend some of the Twickenham profits on things like marketing and development officers in these markets. If on the other hand the money is spent on directors' pensions, then it is out of order.

 

[welshglory]

The RFU have been generating a load of revenue and profits for a long time but it doesn't seem to make much difference to the North, regardless of development officers and marketers. The benefits of high profile matches are largely unknown (because there have hardly ever been any matches up there) but something needs to be done to link the huge grassroots success in the North West and Leeds especially.

Also I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to stick the boot into English rugby. In fact unlike many Celtic supporters I want to see domestic English rugby prosper as I believe growth there will inadvertently lead to growth around the UK and around the world.

 

[Which Tyler]

Definte "not much difference to the North" What would count as "difference to the North"
Is investment in grass roots level clubs; improved pitches and clubhouses; and "huge grassroots success" not a good thing?
IS a premiership club an absolute requirement for rugby to be considered a success in a region? or is it about the grassroots (which, after all, are largely the point of the RFU)?

 

[JJFlash]

I used to be a season ticket holder at the Tigers in the 80s and 90s and am completely out of touch with the cost of a season ticket today.
Have prices gone up in line with inflation, or not?

 

[curtbob7]

I used to be a season ticket holder at the Tigers in the 80s and 90s and am completely out of touch with the cost of a season ticket today.
Have prices gone up in line with inflation, or not?

Oh for sure prices are more expensive now.

Think we've been affected by losing Next and Caterpillar you know. Would be great to get them back on board financially and for crowds.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I went to the 1997 Eng v ABs at Old Trafford - 56,000 crowd, which I think was capacity at the time. Living in Surrey, that's the reverse of the trip our Northern friends suffer every time they have to come to Twickenham, so I understand the substantial time and cost involved.

I'd love to see Eng games spread around the country. Most of the big set pieces could remain at HQ, but why not have 2 of the 3 AIs elsewhere or the occasional 6N game in a 3 home match season (against some of weaker sides, you know, Italy, Wales....). That all comes with the caveat that if the crowds don't show, then it's back to London; but they will.

"IS a premiership club an absolute requirement for rugby to be considered a success in a region? or is it about the grassroots (which, after all, are largely the point of the RFU)?

I think the two feed off each other. That Sale and Falcons haven't attracted big crowds is a disappointment, but I think there are very specific local factors for each of those.

 

[stus768]

Falcons official attendance posted as 7,650. Pretty solid number.

 

[RedruthRFC]

The RFU have been generating a load of revenue and profits for a long time but it doesn't seem to make much difference to the North, regardless of development officers and marketers. The benefits of high profile matches are largely unknown (because there have hardly ever been any matches up there) but something needs to be done to link the huge grassroots success in the North West and Leeds especially.

You're right in what you say about RFU revenues, but I have no idea as how much if any of it has been spent on developing the game in the north.

What grass roots success are you referring to? The biggest example I can think of is the perpetual strength of Yorkshire's colts team. Since league rugby was introduced, northern rugby appears to be in decline to me with clubs like Broughton Park, Manchester, Preston Grasshoppers, Orrell, Aspatria, Vale of Lune, Morley and Waterloo dropping out of the National Leagues, Headingley and Roundhay amalgamating and Wakefield ceasing to exist. I know that some have gone in the other direction (notably Rotherham and Doncaster), but on balance, I'd have thought that the northern presence in the national leagues has become weaker, as evidenced by the seemingly ever increasing London bias in National 1.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Killing it at county level, in the last decade 7 have been won by the North (6 lancs, one York and then 2 Cornwall one herts)

 

[RedruthRFC]

Killing it at county level, in the last decade 7 have been won by the North (6 lancs, one York and then 2 Cornwall one herts)

Much as the County Championship holds a fond place in my heart, given how few counties take it seriously, I'm not sure what you could say this stat is indicative of. Take away Fylde and Mark Nelson's support, the skew could easily be the other way around.

 

[curtbob7]

Be interesting to see the effect on Wasps attendances if their form continues.

 

[Amiga500]

I don't think you can really look at something like attendances week to week. Even season-to-season looking at one club could be misleading!

 

[Lancashire Nick]

Cant get my head around your owners wanting to buy the AJ Bell. Not only is it a bad location its also too big. Where would be best?

How about somewhere in Sale?

 

[Lancashire Nick]

Cant be the only one who gets annoyed seeing swatches of empty seats in top flight games. Prem looks down on last year.

Tigers- 22.5K 20K -Two pretty big games that would usually have been close to selling out. Down on 16/17.
Wasps- 12K + 15K- down on last year.
Saints- 15K (local derby, big away following) + 12K- down on last year.
Warriors - 7k + 6K -must be down on last year? Still poor.
Quins- 12K- definitely down on last year.
Chiefs- 8k -new champions? You'd think not
Falcons -5K -not helped by moving a fixture to Philly but still poor.
Sale - garbage as ever -4K +5k -Relocation needed?

Bath + Gloucester have only had 1 fixture was the opening game against Sarries and a local derby.

Irish and Sarries figures cant really be looked at.

The turn up of around 2k for the States game was disgraceful.

Discuss...

I'll give my own reasons for not attending more games.

My nearest Premiership team (Sale) is about an hours drive away, assuming no congestion and traffic jams ! Depending on the match, adult seats cost from £28.00 to £37.50 each (standing is £22-£25). Then there's the cost and hassle of parking, the cost of refreshments at the match etc. If I go with my 19 year old son, who is a Sale supporter, we're lucky to see much change from £100.

Or I can go and watch my local amateur team which is about a 5 minute drive away for free.

 

[RedruthRFC]

My nearest Premiership team (Sale) is about an hours drive away, assuming no congestion and traffic jams ! Depending on the match, adult seats cost from £28.00 to £37.50 each (standing is £22-£25). Then there's the cost and hassle of parking, the cost of refreshments at the match etc. If I go with my 19 year old son, who is a Sale supporter, we're lucky to see much change from £100.

Or I can go and watch my local amateur team which is about a 5 minute drive away for free.

Within the context of the thread, I don't imagine that it's the case that people are choosing local clubs over AP ones. Championship crowds have been in decline for a number of years and my impression is that this is the case all the way down the pyramid (with the exception of N1 which currently contains a lot of clubs with strong support bases).

I'm always amazed how little interest there is on these forums for rugby below the AP. The trips I've taken to watch AP games have been enjoyable, but even if time and money was no object, I'd pick grass roots rugby for week in, week out watching. Much of what I appreciate about a day out to watch rugby is missing from the AP, but evident is spades at grassroots games. In hindsight, I had the best of all worlds for the season I spent watching Swansea play all of the Allied Dunbar Premiership teams for the princely sum of £4 with a pint or two before and after in the clubhouse.

 

[welshglory]

You're right in what you say about RFU revenues, but I have no idea as how much if any of it has been spent on developing the game in the north.

What grass roots success are you referring to? The biggest example I can think of is the perpetual strength of Yorkshire's colts team. Since league rugby was introduced, northern rugby appears to be in decline to me with clubs like Broughton Park, Manchester, Preston Grasshoppers, Orrell, Aspatria, Vale of Lune, Morley and Waterloo dropping out of the National Leagues, Headingley and Roundhay amalgamating and Wakefield ceasing to exist. I know that some have gone in the other direction (notably Rotherham and Doncaster), but on balance, I'd have thought that the northern presence in the national leagues has become weaker, as evidenced by the seemingly ever increasing London bias in National 1.

Definitely the strength of the age grade sides and the amount of players that are developed, and the general strength of youth rugby. Grassroots senior men's clubs sides aren't really indicative of anything as they are mostly social clubs for men to have a kick around and a beer. Over 18s team sport participation is declining all around the globe.

 

[curtbob7]

Average so far excluding the Twickenham fixtures.

Tigers : 21,784
Wasps: 17,858 (16,400 without the Tigers at the Ricoh fixture)
Bath: 14,439 -pretty clear a bigger ground is needed.
Quins: 14,142
Gloucs: 13,671
Saints: 13,547
Chiefs: 11,371
Saffacens: 8,207
Worcester: 7,846
Falcons: 7,570
Irish: 7,404
Sale: 5,642