1. 2016 RBS Six Nations Rugby Table - The Rugby Forum
    Table updated after last fixture of the weekend

Predicted 6N table 2020

Discussion in '2020 Guinness Six Nations' started by Tooting Carmen, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

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    I don't think you have a bad front 5 at all, it's just that it was exposed by SA who a) have the two best tight 5's in the world and can interchange them within a game to keep everyone fresh and b) England lost Sinkler early on. When you take those things into account, I'd say that the English tight 5 is probably the third best in the world... behind the 2 SA ones.
     
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  3. Not Eddie Jones

    Not Eddie Jones Academy Player

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    I'm sorry, I'm getting really lost as to what your point is about smart generals. If I can just have a stab at what I think you're saying: it's that get England into a tight game and they're there for the taking because their halfbacks are not smart enough to win close games. Okay, it's true they didn't win any close games last year, but that's because they blew most of their opponents away. Back in 2016-17 they won 17 games in a row and they were mostly close and they had many comebacks. Sure, half that team is gone now, as we've said, but the halfbacks were still Youngs, Ford and Farrell back then, so they're clearly smart enough to win tight games. In fact, they're old masters at it. Furthermore, our closest game in 2019 was the draw with Scotland (can't get closer than that) and in that game Ford came off the bench, changed things up and we went on to snatch the draw when we'd previously looked lost. If England do have a problem in tight games, and I'm not convinced they do, then the halfbacks are clearly not the problem.

    And why would adjustments hurt England more than Ireland, Scotland or Wales? Am I missing something? Those 3 teams all lost tight games last year.

    Sorry, fella, I'm just lost. :confused:
     
  4. ragerancher

    ragerancher International

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    I suggest you stop being so condescending, you are not some rugby guru and it's beginning to grate. Yes the source of points does matter, how the hell can you say it doesn't? You're trying to make out England were not even in the game yet the minor inconvenience to that argument is all of SA's early points were from penalties off scrums from unforced knock-ons. That is very different to the fact England's penalties all came from open play and ruck penalties (ie when we were threatening SA and they infringed to stop it). When a player drops the ball way behind the gainline without an opposition player nearby that is an unforced error and has nothing to do with being battered up front. It WAS different to the Ireland game because we scored multiple tries off moves we created, we did not score all our points off the Irish randomly spilling the ball. How on earth can you try to claim I'm the one being biased here? The 2 games were completely different. England were still in the SA game, Ireland were not in the England game at all.


    Except it was. You said if England are being beaten up front they don't have the rugby IQ to still get a win. That applies to all teams.

    And we had also beaten Wales 4 times on the bounce, all tight games but you decide to pick the time we do lose (both away games too) as your evidence whilst ignoring all the rest? Every game we have played against Wales has been tight, bar an international in 2018 I think where we mashed them. You have ignored what 6 odd games in this world cup cycle and instead focused on the one we lost? Again, who is being biased here? We lost a tight game to Ireland but again have won tight games against Ireland, ignoring all those. We have had multiple games against Australia that have been very high intensity with English forwards losing on pretty much every stat yet we still won. We had games against France where our forwards were on the back foot and we still won. If we want to talk bullshit, the idea that England can't win tight games is the bullshit. The problem with England is completely switching off and making errors they do not make in other games. The Scotland game is a fine example, that was not even close to a tight game before the slide started.

    Yes I know, but this is a prediction thread so it needs to be based on something. England have had the best recent form, have put in the most convincing wins in the last year, have the same coach and have the 2 big games at home.

    But saying England got dominated in the final and NZ didn't turn up is just fine? If you want to make that claim, you have no right to start throwing a hissy fit and saying double standard. You are free to make that claim if you want, or you are free to not and claim double standard but you are not free to do both without getting called out on it. I mean you are trying to claim England may not be that much better despite us beating Ireland in every area last year. That would be like us English saying Ireland weren't better last year, which at the time would have been clearly ridiculous. Is there a chance it could change this year? Certainly, but at the moment there is nothing to suggest that.

    Yeah they won no trophies in the last 2 years but they have won 2 trophies in the last 4, which is more than Wales or Ireland. Where you decide to draw the line can distort things however you want. Last 4 years England have had the 2nd highest number of wins in the world, last year we are 2nd in world cup, beaten New Zealand and set record scores. 2 years, those stats all drop. You have chosen 2 years as it conveniently includes England's lowest period and excludes their best period but also don't choose 1 as that would also be beneficial for England.
     
  5. dullonien

    dullonien International

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    I know Spencer has been in and around the squad, so Jones just needs to test him properly. But then Simpson looked good for a number of seasons at wasps and Robson also, but Jones basically ignored them, so who knows....
     
  6. themole25

    themole25 First XV

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    Gambling is a lot less taboo in the rest of the world.
    I’ve stopped betting on rugby cause I don’t need money on it to make it enjoyable. If I’m at a friends house watching football I have to place a bet cause it’s the only way to make it bearable.
     
  7. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

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    Is it really that taboo in the states? I just watched that Hidden Gems movie and sports betting was a major part of it.
     
  8. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    I'm not a rugby guru but I'm going to continue being condescending as long as you continue to be ultra defensive, either lack reading comprehension or bend what I say to suit your argument, and lack self-awareness by continuing to not give any credit to any team other than England. Because that's just bad manners.
    So England's unforced errors allowed SA to play to their strengths and therefore it was all England's fault and that's why the source of points matter? But Henshaw not finding the stands or grass with a clearance kick that he had all the time you'd ever want which gave England a set piece to attack quickly from and then him being on the wrong side of the pitch for no reason hanging Earls out to dry first and then Stockdale for the second try isn't unforced. And presumably neither was Murray's bad passing off good ball, I'm pretty sure one of which led to the scrum for Slade's first try. Why don't these count? Because they were less obvious or because you don't notice them because you're understandably only focused on England? You're making my point for me here.



    Nah, I've consistently spoken about the hypothetical game where two sides are at there very best, where you'd expect some semblance of parity with the teams mentioned. Also never said England would lose to Ireland just that they'd lose to someone.


    Like really? I've said I think 5 teams in world rugby are better than England in this regard and you bring up France and Australia? The 5 are SA, NZ (which I actually take back, England are better than them in this regard) Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Now it shouldn't be a factor v Scotland because England should dominate them and yet it has been the last two meetings. You're right about the Wales games but I think their personnel changes, Davies for Webb and Amscombe for Bigger as well as Parkes who is quietly an intelligent if unskilled player edged it for them last year. South Africa had the best half back pairing in the world last year so that shouldn't be contentious and I did insert a few ifs with Ireland but Cooney and Sexton have been performing better at club level than any England halfbacks since the world cup and obviously Sexton has credit in the bank, Leinster have also been using Larmour very effectively as a playmaker and this should translate, but if Ireland don't turn around their form up front it's fairly moot. Anyway, it's not a definite deciding factor but it's a point of difference in my opinion.


    That's fine, we've strayed here though.

    I never said that though, don't claim I've been having hissy fits, applying double standards or complain about me being condescending when I've been perfectly clear and collected and you've either misinterpreted it or put words in my mouth and getting worked up about it.
    And Ireland were better in every area the year before, we could go on? I don't want to.
    Anyway I said I think one of Ireland or Wales would click while England will have a world cup hangover. About three England fans agreed with me and you're the one trying to make this an England v Ireland thing, I don't think we'll win in Twickenham. Even if Ireland win a grand slam I wouldn't say there definitely better than England. (I did in 2018 but I've learnt enough since)


    No, I chose two years because one of my three main points is how international form is fickle and both our countries have been massively up and down in those two years... I have no agenda. But you're listing all these matches and saying how great England are but there's still no trophy, it's worth pointing out.

    I hope the 4th response up the way clears it up? If not I don't think we're going to see eye to eye.
     
  9. ragerancher

    ragerancher International

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    Well you have made your mind up and I can't be arsed to respond to that especially as it isn't the main point of the thread. I just still maintain that England are in the best form coming into this and we should be aiming to win it.
     
  10. The Alpha Bro

    The Alpha Bro Fat Boi

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    lol. I know I've addressed the points made and know the points I've made. Call me a hypocrite but no one will buy it. I could be wrong on the rugby points and have said as much but I'm not wrong where I've accused you of bending my words.

    Other than that, enjoy the rest of your Sunday!
     
  11. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

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    Well most of the predictions on the thread back you up on England being favourites (including my own) but all nations (yes, even Scotland) apart from Italy should be aiming to win it.
     
  12. duncanb

    duncanb Academy Player

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    Agree anyone bar Italy and Scotland could win it still think it will be close and maybe a points difference winner no Grand Slam for me but no doubt will be proved wrong heyho.
     
  13. mdmaDeKlerk

    mdmaDeKlerk Academy Player

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    1. Scotland
    2. France
    3. Wales
    4. England
    5. Ireland
    6. Italy

    :p
     
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  14. Dave Davies

    Dave Davies Bench Player

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    Quite the opposite, I'd say... in fact, sports betting just became nationally legal for the first time this past year, so there is a whole new world of TV shows specifically focused on betting and all that stuff. On one hand, I don't know anyone who thinks of gambling as 'taboo,' but on the other, I also don't know a single person who bets on games. The law change has made zero difference for me and everyone I know, but obviously it made a big difference for tons of other people. :)
     
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  15. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

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    Lol, the movie I watched was actually called Uncut Gems...
     
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  16. Dave Davies

    Dave Davies Bench Player

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    Haven't seen it yet, heard it's incredible! But I won't turn this into a movie thread... :)
     
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  17. Johnny Storm

    Johnny Storm Academy Player

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    I'm not sure what to expect from Scotland and Ireland, both had very bad world cups with humiliating defeats to Japan which really shook the teams badly, and I don't see either of them beating England or Wales.

    I'm excited to see what all the new young players will bring to the French side, hopefully discipline will also be improved from the WC.

    England have a very strong side, and should win this 6N, with or without a GS. The final against SA in the WC was one beer to far for them after the performance against NZ and they just couldn't win that final game. I do think they are a very good side and only Wales can beat them in this 6N.

    If Wales beat England at Twickenham then it will vindicate the claim I've heard from several Welsh people that they would have definitely beaten England in the WC final, and hence would (should) now be the world champions. It will be interesting to see what happens in that game.

    We've just had the office 6N sweepstake at work, £5 winner takes all (£25), we didn't bother with a ticket for Italy, waste of time, definitely no chance, though I would love to see them win a game or two.
     
  18. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

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    I wouldn’t listen to those guys... South Africa should definitely be champs. If we had of scraped through to the final... we’ll never know and isn’t really worth thinking about.
     
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  19. ncurd

    ncurd International

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    Yeah those guys are clearly either (a) trolls or (b) one-eyed.

    Not only does live in the land hypotheticals it doesn't take into consideration Wales margin of loss against NZ in the 3rd place match.

    They'll be vindicated by bugger all the only thing that matters re: world cup SA won, Eng came second, NZ came 3rd and Wales 4th. If Wales beat England at Twickenham all it proves is this Wales team can beat the current England team in England not what would of happened in Japan months ago.
     
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  20. bushytop

    bushytop First XV

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    C’mon dude, we didn’t have to go there did we?
     
  21. Amiga500

    Amiga500 First XV

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    England are a different side without big Billy Vunipola... and not in a good way. Perhaps someone can step up - although my main thought (Quins 8 Dombrandt) wasn't included in the squad.
    Also look out for squad harmony possibly suffering in the aftermath of the Sorries debacle.

    Ireland are in flux. In a complete turn around from days of yore, lineout could become a real problem while the scrum could be a point of strength. Back row is also an issue, at least one (POM), possibly two (Stander) need dropped for more in-form options. Murray needed dropped 18 months ago and Sexton is gonna be rusty. Can the backplay lift itself from a turgid mess to something acceptable? Doubtful.

    Wales are coming in off a decent world cup but with a new coach that will likely play in a very different way to Gatland. Can the Scarlets model be emulated on the test arena? None of the regions are flying high (as is almost usual) - but we've seen before that doesn't deter the international team.

    Scotland will do the usual. Talk themselves up no-end then deliver the square root of f**k all when the heat comes on.

    France will be fascinating. Will a young squad be receptive to Shaun Edwards? Will a hard nosed approach succeed where the softly softly has obviously failed? I believe so. Two home games to start, if they win le crunch I see them doing the grand slam.

    Zebre and Treviso have moved forward in the Pro14, of that there is no doubt. Conor O'Shea failed to translate it to internationals, can their new coaching ticket do any better? Home game against Scotland is a massive target.


    My pick for the end pecking order:
    France -- 22 pts - GS, 2BP
    England -- 19 pts - 4W, 3BP
    Wales -- 15 pts - 3W, 3BP
    Ireland -- 10 pts, 2W, 2BP
    Italy -- 4 pts, 1W, 0BP
    Scotland -- 3 pts, 0W, 3BP
     
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    Last edited: Jan 22, 2020
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