Paris Olympics 2024

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sharron Davies and JK Rowling have both stuck their heads above the parapet on this. By now they should be well prepared for the abuse that will inevitably come their way.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not really difficult. Both fighters failed testosterone tests but were still allowed to fight. It's dangerous and shouldn't be allowed to happen. You have men beating up women in an olympic event.

Playing devil's advocate here: You're then stopping athletes identified as women at birth, raised women and who haven't doped from competing.

Obviously certain conditions and disabilities restrict people from competing all the time and there's a sizeable element of danger here. Not a simple issue though.

 

[Which Tyler]

Playing devil's advocate here: You're then stopping athletes identified as women at birth, raised women and who haven't doped from competing.

Obviously certain conditions and disabilities restrict people from competing all the time and there's a sizeable element of danger here. Not a simple issue though.

Yeah, we need to separate out the "transgender in sport" discussion from the "chromosomes don't match physicality" discussion.

The following will all be IMO and largely uninformed.
Transgender in elite sport should depend on how far someone has transitioned, and should at least include taking the correct dose of hormone therapy (which, to my understanding, will utterly knacker anyone's capacity to compete in elite sport).

For the latter, there simply is no good answer, and relies on being "fair" to both the competitor, and their competition. TBH, I'm mostly good with letting them compete, on the principal that people with those conditions will have been competing for as long as there's been an olympics movement, it's just that no-one knew. Which sucks for the rest of the field. I have changed my mind on this a few times over the last decade+. I will also allow that there's a difference between a sport where people are trying to run fast, and a sport where people are trying to batter their opponents into submission / concussion.

The only people who are actively wrong about such cases are those claiming that "it's not difficult"

 

[Saintjay]

Yeah, we need to separate out the "transgender in sport" discussion from the "chromosomes don't match physicality" discussion.

The following will all be IMO and largely uninformed.
Transgender in elite sport should depend on how far someone has transitioned, and should at least include taking the correct dose of hormone therapy (which, to my understanding, will utterly knacker anyone's capacity to compete in elite sport).

For the latter, there simply is no good answer, and relies on being "fair" to both the competitor, and their competition. TBH, I'm mostly good with letting them compete, on the principal that people with those conditions will have been competing for as long as there's been an olympics movement, it's just that no-one knew. Which sucks for the rest of the field. I have changed my mind on this a few times over the last decade+. I will also allow that there's a difference between a sport where people are trying to run fast, and a sport where people are trying to batter their opponents into submission / concussion.

The only people who are actively wrong about such cases are those claiming that "it's not difficult"

It's an absolute mess. Even with running there's an advatage i think.

One argument i see a lot of is you can't support trans rights whilst at the same time saying they should be excluded. That view is endorsing discrimination and exclusion. It's not that simple or is it?

It's really difficult and both sides can be quite vicious to each other. I don't know what the answer is.

 

[McTallshort]

Playing devil's advocate here: You're then stopping athletes identified as women at birth, raised women and who haven't doped from competing.

Obviously certain conditions and disabilities restrict people from competing all the time and there's a sizeable element of danger here. Not a simple issue though.

Ok but in terms of boxing you have to be strict. It's not like the South African runner. In combat sports it could lead to serious long term damage that is why the testosterone tests are there. They both failed those but we're still allowed to complete. Many high profile female fighters like Clarissa Shields have spoken out against it. Will it stop certain athletes from competing? Yes but that's better than seeing a female boxer get her head caved in live on the BBC.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ok but in terms of boxing you have to be strict. It's not like the South African runner. In combat sports it could lead to serious long term damage that is why the testosterone tests are there. They both failed those but we're still allowed to complete. Many high profile female fighters like Clarissa Shields have spoken out against it. Will it stop certain athletes from competing? Yes but that's better than seeing a female boxer get her head caved in live on the BBC.

To be honest I think the difficulty is having blanket rules. Where's the fairness of not qualifying a boxer but not a runner even though the advantages are the same?

I'd be more in line of not qualifying anyone affected. Same with any cases of transgenders competing. Equity rather than equality needs to be the target.

 

[Yulia]

Personally I don't like female combat sports and don't even watch it. Too "painful" and cruel to watch. Male combat sports don't look that scary

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah, we need to separate out the "transgender in sport" discussion from the "chromosomes don't match physicality" discussion.

The following will all be IMO and largely uninformed.
Transgender in elite sport should depend on how far someone has transitioned, and should at least include taking the correct dose of hormone therapy (which, to my understanding, will utterly knacker anyone's capacity to compete in elite sport).

For the latter, there simply is no good answer, and relies on being "fair" to both the competitor, and their competition. TBH, I'm mostly good with letting them compete, on the principal that people with those conditions will have been competing for as long as there's been an olympics movement, it's just that no-one knew. Which sucks for the rest of the field. I have changed my mind on this a few times over the last decade+. I will also allow that there's a difference between a sport where people are trying to run fast, and a sport where people are trying to batter their opponents into submission / concussion.

The only people who are actively wrong about such cases are those claiming that "it's not difficult"

Not sure about the transgender comment, and that's not an area I'm wading into, but the rest of the post is spot on.

I'm a big athletics fan and we got to the ridiculous situation where they were allowed to compete in races up to 400m and over 1,500m which Semenya saw as targeting her, an 800m runner. Probably rightly, could the science really be that specific?

There aren't any easy answers. But safety especially in a combat sport where risks are being run anyway must take precedence.

The top athletes in all sports invariably have genetic advantages of some kind. Was it 'fair' to other cyclists that Miguel Indurain had a 7.8 litre lung capacity and a resting pulse of 28? Testosterone obviously brings a different and ethical dimension though.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Does anyone have any background on Imane Khelif?

From what i've read she was born with female genitalia and XY chromosomes. There lies the issue regarding how to classify her in terms of competitive sports categories (not as a person, please, dont go there).

Difficult situation that I'd hate to be making the decisions on.

I tend to have a view on most hypothetical situations but this one is particularly tricky. Can't believe i am saying this but I wouldn't like to be the one calling the shots either. Lose-lose-lose.

You have men beating up women in an olympic event.

Well, that depends on your definition of man, doesn't it? That is precisely the point. What the rules of the competition allow doesn't reconcile well with what the general population thinks/believes should be allowed.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Yeah, we need to separate out the "transgender in sport" discussion from the "chromosomes don't match physicality" discussion.

Bingo!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Ok but in terms of boxing you have to be strict. It's not like the South African runner. In combat sports it could lead to serious long term damage that is why the testosterone tests are there.

Agreed, at least in principle. The problem is you also need to be practical. Those standards, need to be applied universally. Can you realistically expect every 13 year old amateur athlete to be tested? Dont think about the UK, France, Ireland or US. Think of places like Algeria, Vietnam, Salvador, Belarus.
It's not an easy problem to tackle.

 

[ncurd]

Chromosome are a mess intersex people exist and there is no such thing as a binary.

Sharron Davies and JK Rowling have both stuck their heads above the parapet on this. By now they should be well prepared for the abuse that will inevitably come their way.

TERFs being TERFs big surprise. Both are increidbly misinformed and are not interested in the kind of nuanced discussion that has been had here.

As an aside I don't know why Davies is employed by the BBC she makes Sonya look great at the rugby. Her interview with Peaty where she completely misinterpreted what he clearly said and then after he clarified continued to put word in his mouth was shocking. She also said something else to another competitor this morning that Foster almost had speak out loud was wrong.

 

[AlRums]

Chromosome are a mess intersex people exist and there is no such thing as a binary.

TERFs being TERFs big surprise. Both are increidbly misinformed and are not interested in the kind of nuanced discussion that has been had here.

As an aside I don't know why Davies is employed by the BBC she makes Sonya look great at the rugby. Her interview with Peaty where she completely misinterpreted what he clearly said and then after he clarified continued to put word in his mouth was shocking. She also said something else to another competitor this morning that Foster almost had speak out loud was wrong.

I used to train with Sharon many moons ago as early teens. She was very opinionated then and sometimes quite "forceful". Since daddy was the head coach she got away with a lot.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Dana Morehouse robbed by the judges in boxing there. Boxed the French girls ears off.

 

[McTallshort]

Agreed, at least in principle. The problem is you also need to be practical. Those standards, need to be applied universally. Can you realistically expect every 13 year old amateur athlete to be tested? Dont think about the UK, France, Ireland or US. Think of places like Algeria, Vietnam, Salvador, Belarus.
It's not an easy problem to tackle.

Ok but it's the Olympics. Tests were taken , the results were a failure but the boxers were allowed to fight. Had they not have been allowed to fight I doubt anyone would know any different but now you have social media in a meltdown about supposed trans athletes (they are not trans but that doesn't seem to matter) fighting woman and female boxers being denied a chance of a medal after 4 years of hard work and dedication.

There were tests, these were ignored. Now we have a whole mess that's threatening to overshadow everything

 

[Which Tyler]

Isee the Americans will do anything to think they are leading when in fact by gold medals they are 6th, behind the dreaded Chinese

 

[McTallshort]

As an aside I don't know why Davies is employed by the BBC she makes Sonya look great at the rugby.

Hold on there! That's taking it a bit far

 

[ncurd]

Watching the news on the BBC

So it's cause the IBA have been removed from governing status years ago by the IOC because they wouldn't ban Russian/Belarus plarticipants. It's not because IOC are contradicting them it's because they don't recognise them. They should of appointed someone else but they aren't ready yet. The IBA isn't recognised by the USA, Poland, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Great Britain, Ireland, Czechia, Sweden and Canada.

One punch to the face with gloves and headguard being too much? Come off it that's someone giving up to make a point. Kehlief has fought 50 times before and lost 9 times. This isn't someone new to the ring and was competing 3 years ago. If this was a safety issue they'd have raised issues long before now.

Not saying what the correct answer to this athlete is but the idea because the IBA said it was bad and they are being ignored is skewed reporting. And there are definitely people using it for political reasons.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

saw we had a guy sponsored by Hugo boss so looked at their shop. only 130 for a training shirt.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Exciting end for Murray, but the comeback was too late really