[November Tests 2016 EOYT] England vs. South Africa (12/11/2016)

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Does May ever play fullback? He doesn't strike me as having the spatial awareness for the position, could just be being unfair there though

He's played there for Gloucester before, very few times though. I would be extremely concerned if it came to playing him at fullback for England.

 

[Which Tyler]

Age group and breakthrough at Glos as a FB, many think it's his better position (including himself, but not me).

Daly played FB for a bit as a way of fitting him on the pitch, he was... OK at prem level.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Age group and breakthrough at Glos as a FB, many think it's his better position (including himself, but not me).

Daly played FB for a bit as a way of fitting him on the pitch, he was... OK at prem level.

I thought May grew up at 13 before making the switch to wing? And Daly also played 15 for the Barbarians, I think he's pretty impressive there.

 

[spartan32]

I think most would agree May at fullback would not work out well for anyone. His kicking is suspect, tacklings not great, but he's ok in the air I suppose. He's a strike runner and should stay on the wing where he belongs

 

[McTallshort]

Woods back then? Never rated him but then Haskell came good under Jones perhaps he might

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think Wood chosen as much for his line out ability and to give England a third target. See SA have chosen Eben/Lood at lock and a big back row of Alberts (at 6 or openside) PSDT at 7 and Whitely at 8. So they look like they will have at least 4 options to aim at the lineout (unsure if Whitely is one, but if so that's 5). So I expect SA to kick for a lot of territory and then from the line out Maul it and take England's packs' legs away. Could be a long afternoon.

 

[petite]

i would bet on the bocks this time! bocks by 10!!

 

[SomeOke]

Can you explain how your bench 9 is better than our bench 9 when its the opposite on starting 9's and both are 9's are of 'equalish' quality?

There is a feeling that Paige is a quota player.
I'm not in 100% agreement as I think if we are going to play the kind of rugby AC is looking for Paige is probably the better option.
Faf certainly has the higher ceiling but he's been a bit erratic lately.

 

[Zed]

Whats the go with Eliot Daly, is he any good? Had a look on youtube and he looks alright, pretty quick. Or is he only in there because Joseph is injured? Manu Tuilagi still injured?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Whats the go with Eliot Daly, is he any good? Had a look on youtube and he looks alright, pretty quick. Or is he only in there because Joseph is injured? Manu Tuilagi still injured?

I'd say he's in better form than JJ ATM. He offers more in attack although his defence isn't quite as good, still pretty solid though. He's also capable of making some big hits, he ended Ian Whitten's day in the first Prem game of the season with a very big shot.

 

[Zed]

I'm gobsmacked Mike Brown is still in the England setup. Very ordinary, he does the basics well, but that's it, his running lines and attacking in general are poor, he has this very strange tendency to almost stop when he steps and loses all of his pace, compared to someone like Cullen who would be stepping whilst going flat out. Yarde has had some good games, but I didn't think he had a great series against Australia, for a big quick lad, doesn't seem to have much power. I'm not a fan of Owen Farrell either, but I thought he and Ford played well against Australia. So IMO not a great backline, but a pretty solid forward pack.

I think if England can get Tuilagi back, perhaps someone like Daly at 13, Youngs & Ford at 9/10, Watson (he was good down under) back on the wing and a new fullback and wing they'll have a very, very good side.

 

[Peat]

Manu is still dead.

JJ's believed to have missed a lot of training due to a groin injury and that's why Daly got the go.

I think Daly and JJ are very similar players - very quick, decent power for their size, good step, decent playmaking abilities - and am excited to have a look at Daly. He's in great form and looks well worth a punt at this level.

The one thing I would worry with him though is his defensive positioning. Could be found out there.

edit: Other worry would be system based. Barring people taking their eye off of the new guy, in general, I've got to wonder how Daly's going to find space where Joseph can't.

 

[Zed]

Barring people taking their eye off of the new guy, in general, I've got to wonder how Daly's going to find space where Joseph can't.

He looks like the kind of player that can find space when there isn't any. He reminds me of James O'Connor, he tracks across field finds a small gap, straightens and accelerates. I reckon he'll go alright.

 

[Colombia]

Much of what I have read Eddie Jones saying about Daly appears to relate to his kicking ability, more specifically the big boomer off the left foot.

That makes 9, 10, 12, 13, 14 & 15 all kicking options for England. Jones also mentioned the conditions. It may well be that England are going to boot the leather off it.

 

[Peat]

He looks like the kind of player that can find space when there isn't any. He reminds me of James O'Connor, he tracks across field finds a small gap, straightens and accelerates. I reckon he'll go alright.

Joseph's not too shabby at that either. I think he's going to go okay too, but I wouldn't be surprised if people end up a little underwhelmed. Our system sucks in guys then goes really wide, we don't seem to be creating great opportunities for 13 and they become more creators than finishers. Or, at least, true of Joseph. I'm hoping people pay slightly less attention to Daly, I think that could be the key for him.

 

[Zed]

Joseph's not too shabby at that either. I think he's going to go okay too, but I wouldn't be surprised if people end up a little underwhelmed. Our system sucks in guys then goes really wide, we don't seem to be creating great opportunities for 13 and they become more creators than finishers. Or, at least, true of Joseph. I'm hoping people pay slightly less attention to Daly, I think that could be the key for him.

Yeah I think part of the problem is having "non-strike" players like Farrell and Ford at 12. Good players, but they don't offer much threat in attack, so defenders can hang off and drift quickly onto 13, knowing 12 isn't going to attack or if he does will be easily pulled down. You want a 12 that is going to attract defenders and I guess that was the hope with Sam Burgess.

 

[Peat]

Yeah I think part of the problem is having "non-strike" players like Farrell and Ford at 12. Good players, but they don't offer much threat in attack, so defenders can hang off and drift quickly onto 13, knowing 12 isn't going to attack or if he does will be easily pulled down. You want a 12 that is going to attract defenders and I guess that was the hope with Sam Burgess.

My thoughts entirely. So far Ford/Farrell has worked because our pack have gone bananas on people ball in hand and Ford/Farrell have been great at spotting and taking the opportunities out wide. Joseph would be better served by Te'o or Tuilagi or even Burrell at 12, but the team wouldn't... yet.

I'd add that at the beginning of the 6N, our pack couldn't carry for dogshat which, coincidentally, is what our performances looked like. Itoje changed that pretty much single handedly. Now he's out - is Mako going to step up? Launch? I think we could be back to relying on Billy Vunipola and that does not end so well.

Final thought - I have taken to tracking rugby like it was ice hockey in terms of awarding 1 point each to a player for a score, for an assist, and for an assist to an assist, to try and get a better picture of who's contributing to tries. Joseph actually got the same amount of points in the 2016 6N where he looked subdued as he did in the 2015 6N where he looked out of control awesome. Funny how these things work out.

 

[unrated]

Jones is making me nervous with this talk of having a plan to deal with the Boks. Usually i would write it of as pre match mind games but i swear he said the same thing as Japan coach. Hopefully we were complacent on that day.

 

[TRF_heineken]

What's Francois Venter all about?

Well, he's one of the form players this year, and IMHO the best 13 we have for SA at the moment. He's a great defender, big strong and fast. Has great distribution skills, and is able to get over the advantage line. And he's an amazing leader. What he's done for the Cheetahs this year as captain has been really amazing.

There is a feeling that Paige is a quota player.
I'm not in 100% agreement as I think if we are going to play the kind of rugby AC is looking for Paige is probably the better option.
Faf certainly has the higher ceiling but he's been a bit erratic lately.

Yeah, I think last year we were all thinking of Paige as a quota, mainly because we had Du Preez, Hougaard and Reinach to choose for the World Cup. But all 3 off them are out of consideration for this tour, and Paige has been in good form and has worked really hard in clearing the ball quicker. He has been looking a bit better than Faf recently.

I think Wood chosen as much for his line out ability and to give England a third target. See SA have chosen Eben/Lood at lock and a big back row of Alberts (at 6 or openside) PSDT at 7 and Whitely at 8. So they look like they will have at least 4 options to aim at the lineout (unsure if Whitely is one, but if so that's 5). So I expect SA to kick for a lot of territory and then from the line out Maul it and take England's packs' legs away. Could be a long afternoon.

Yup! We have 5 lineout options, and Whiteley has been an option during the RC, he's actually a pretty good lineout jumper. And According to AC's discussion yesterday with the SA media, he said that there will be a focus on the driving maul. With this pack, and the dress-rehearsal we had against the Baa-baas, I think we will use it as a weapon.

 

[Sotavalta]

Jones is making me nervous with this talk of having a plan to deal with the Boks. Usually i would write it of as pre match mind games but i swear he said the same thing as Japan coach. Hopefully we were complacent on that day.

This what scares me the most. Jones was able to beat the Springboks with Japan (after having a plan just like now) and imagine what he will be able to do with England against us.