[November Tests 2016 EOYT] England vs. Australia (3/12/2016)

[spartan32]

Don't get me wrong, I'm his biggest fan, I just think that at some point his lack of pace is going to lead to him getting dropped for two pacier wingers who are playing well. This is pretty much what happened in the World Cup. If Jones appreciates the value of the other work that he does, there's less chance of this happening. FWIW, I'm a member of the "his ceiling is higher at FB" camp.

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If Jones is true to his word, who's your work horse out of those three?

EJ hasn't got a true word in his evil convict body. It's all said to keep the world guessing. When you have a back three potentially made up of Watson, Daly, and May, I can't see why on earth you wouldn't play them all at the same time.

He needed some excuse to play Yard over Roko and so he picked something that no one could really question. This talk of coming in looking for the ball, in a Chris Ashton style, is all good and well but not sure I've seen any wing do it during the AIs. It also doesn't seem to fit with the current backs game plan. Ford seems to favour having the wing wide and then creating doubt in defenders by delaying the pass and Iain dummy runners. Look at all the tries scored by the wingers. They were all way out on the touch line, not piling through the middle looking for a cheeky offload.

The fact is EJ does not like Roko, and that has to be about age and him not fitting with his plans for the Japan WC, which I think is his obsession. He came so close with Australia and now I think he sees the chance, and most likely his last chance, to get his hands on that cup. He is hell bent on it and doesn't care who get steamrollered on his path to glory. But maybe it's that ruthlessness that we've been missing.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Roko and Attwood returned to Bath.

 

[Which Tyler]

The fact is EJ does not like Roko, and that has to be about age and him not fitting with his plans for the Japan WC, which I think is his obsession. He came so close with Australia and now I think he sees the chance, and most likely his last chance, to get his hands on that cup. He is hell bent on it and doesn't care who get steamrollered on his path to glory. But maybe it's that ruthlessness that we've been missing.

Someone on the Bath board came up with a pretty convincing theory that it's about attitude. Eddie seems to have a liking for in-your-face, arrogant bastard who won't back down; appointing Hartley as skipper, with Farrell and Brown as deputies.
Roko is a bit of an introvert, the humble, quiet guy at the back of the room - not that he'll back down fro anything, he just won't be in-your-face or cocky about it.
I'll see if I can find the original post.

Roko and Attwood returned to Bath.

TFFT



ETA: Here you go:

I'm tending to lean towards it's a personality thing.

Roko is a very quiet and unassuming guy, not a fiesty, brash individual, in the mould of the type of team Eddie is trying to develop.

So in someways I can see Roko coming across as a little passive at times - Body language and communication.

Hardly traits of an individual thas trying to push the team to excel.

That's how I can see him being perceived. But I'd hasten to add, I think Roko is just as driven as other, but is more introverted.

Edit: to add to this an example would be how Roko quietly celebrates his tries - there is now outburst of emotion, just a measured thank you to his God.

Even quiet little Ford shows a huge amount of emotion in scoring.

Everyone is looking for a technical issue, perhaps it's more personality?

 

[BPM]

As much as I absolutely love Roko and would pick him over Yarde any day of the week, I can see Eddie's point on that. Roko has a tendency to stick out wide and not come infield running support lines. Yarde, to give him credit, was very good at doing that against us on Sunday. Eddie's constantly said that he likes one speed merchant and one work-horse for wingers... it'll be interesting to see if/how he sticks to that mantra once both Nowell and Watson are back, joining May.

Agreed. Our first try against SA was set play using Yarde through the middle. Presumably they would run the same move with Roko, but Yarde is actually relatively unselfish (for a winger) and will look for others to bring in to play. Roko tends to hold on to the ball a lot longer and try to go it alone rather than looking for the pass.

Eddie repeated his 'mantra' about pace on one wing and work on the other today, so it will definitely be an interesting selection when May, Watson and Nowell are all available. May's work rate against Argentina was great so perhaps he can bring pace and work. Or ... eventually we bit the bullet, drop/rest Brown and give Watson (or possibly Nowell) a run at 15.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Agreed. Our first try against SA was set play using Yarde through the middle. Presumably they would run the same move with Roko, but Yarde is actually relatively unselfish (for a winger) and will look for others to bring in to play. Roko tends to hold on to the ball a lot longer and try to go it alone rather than looking for the pass.

Eddie repeated his 'mantra' about pace on one wing and work on the other today, so it will definitely be an interesting selection when May, Watson and Nowell are all available. May's work rate against Argentina was great so perhaps he can bring pace and work. Or ... eventually we bit the bullet, drop/rest Brown and give Watson (or possibly Nowell) a run at 15.

With all players fit we will have some nice headaches in the backs:

15: Daly, Watson, Haley
14: May, Watson
13: JJ, Daly, Slade
12: Farrell, Teo, Slade, Hill
11: Nowell, May
10: Ford, Farrell

Lots of versatility and the ability to really choose a horses for courses set of backs with the added option of changing to a different playing style if it doesn't work.

 

[valley commando]

10/3 with a couple of generous ones. I thought this was generous too. As I hinted above, the balance of opinion (including that of neutrals) in this thread disagrees with us. I'm starting to think that they're calling it about right, or at least close enough that there's not sufficient value to wipe out the over-round. The same goes for total points with a mickey taking 5/6 on whichever side of 47.5 you prefer. My NAP of the weekend - no bet!

My nap is God's Own in the Tingle Creek at Sandown

 

[TW27BA]

With all players fit we will have some nice headaches in the backs:

15: Daly, Watson, Haley
14: May, Watson
13: JJ, Daly, Slade
12: Farrell, Teo, Slade, Hill
11: Nowell, May
10: Ford, Farrell

Lots of versatility and the ability to really choose a horses for courses set of backs with the added option of changing to a different playing style if it doesn't work.

Manu's no longer an option at 12 then?

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Manu's no longer an option at 12 then?

Manu is so far out of the frame he's not worth mentioning until he's brought himself back into contention.

It's been years since he's played properly- he'd just come back from injury for the 2014 NZ tour and was back out soon afterwards. This is, what, his fourth big come back from injury? Starting to remind me of Simpson-Daniel or Wilko 2003-2007.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

IF Manu gets in a run of games and form before Feb I can see him being included TBH.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

happy with the back row Cheika has gone with and also happy Naivalu is starting.

It's pretty much the team Wallaby fans have wanted all year except Adam Coleman is missing due to injury.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I love the fact people on here just can't quite get their head around the fact Roko isn't that good.

Brilliant in attack but his basics are terrible for a tier 1 international. There is no conspiracy or other motive for Eddie Jones, only to pick the best team.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Manu's no longer an option at 12 then?

I think Manu is more likely to retire from rugby due to some permenant problem that means he will never be fully fit than return to England. IF he returns and can string more than 1 season of games together then maybe but until then, no. To me he seems to be going the same way as Corbisiero.

 

[Dunhookin]

We've seen in the past, no matter what, the Aussies are always dangerous, always a threat - never underestimate them. If they can get consistent parity upfront...it'll be very close, we'll need to be very good on the day.

The debate of Roko v Yarde - the former is the favourite of most of the posters on here - and good player that he undoubtedly is, I rate Yarde highly - he's behind Watson and Nowell but I think the lad has a lot to offer and would have him in in a heartbeat

 

[Every Time Ref]

Someone on the Bath board came up with a pretty convincing theory that it's about attitude. Eddie seems to have a liking for in-your-face, arrogant bastard who won't back down; appointing Hartley as skipper, with Farrell and Brown as deputies.
Roko is a bit of an introvert, the humble, quiet guy at the back of the room - not that he'll back down fro anything, he just won't be in-your-face or cocky about it.

This is the only reasonable explanation I've seen offered so far. Attitude is a big deal for Eddie clearly

Agreed. Our first try against SA was set play using Yarde through the middle. Presumably they would run the same move with Roko, but Yarde is actually relatively unselfish (for a winger) and will look for others to bring in to play. Roko tends to hold on to the ball a lot longer and try to go it alone rather than looking for the pass.

England ran Roko through the middle on a set piece against Fiji - see 9:07 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXULe_X9gfk

Using him as the runner rather than a passer, playing to his strengths. Not sure what my point is here really, just an observation. I'm not sure selfishness is that big a flaw in a winger to be honest.

I love the fact people on here just can't quite get their head around the fact Roko isn't that good.

Brilliant in attack but his basics are terrible for a tier 1 international. There is no conspiracy or other motive for Eddie Jones, only to pick the best team.

I don't think he's perfect, but terrible is a very strong word. "Basics" is quite a catch-all kind of phrase, what specifically is Roko terrible at?

 

[spartan32]

We've seen in the past, no matter what, the Aussies are always dangerous, always a threat - never underestimate them. If they can get consistent parity upfront...it'll be very close, we'll need to be very good on the day.

The debate of Roko v Yarde - the former is the favourite of most of the posters on here - and good player that he undoubtedly is, I rate Yarde highly - he's behind Watson and Nowell but I think the lad has a lot to offer and would have him in in a heartbeat

There is no sense in rating Yard over Roko, who has pretty much the best stats of any winger across the board in the AP, certainly much further up the table then Yard, and when he has had chances to get on the pitch at test level has looked more convincing. Neither are likely to feature in future given current crop of wingers, but for a must win game surely you play the best man, and everything I have seen tells me that's Roko. So this isn't about player skill, something else is at play here.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Doesn't Yarde have the worst stats of any available winger?
I remember when someone compiled all their stats yarde was considerably worse than everyone else.

 

[tsof]

This is the only reasonable explanation I've seen offered so far. Attitude is a big deal for Eddie clearly



England ran Roko through the middle on a set piece against Fiji - see 9:07 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXULe_X9gfk

Using him as the runner rather than a passer, playing to his strengths. Not sure what my point is here really, just an observation. I'm not sure selfishness is that big a flaw in a winger to be honest.

He probably didn't help himself by absolutely butchering that simple chance, rather than simply putting in Daly. Luckily he got away with it and put Goode over a phase or two later.

 

[Every Time Ref]

He probably didn't help himself by absolutely butchering that simple chance, rather than simply putting in Daly. Luckily he got away with it and put Goode over a phase or two later.

Yep true that won't have helped. Not what I would call a recurring problem though

 

[mkersyshull]

On another note (as opposed to the winger debate). Will Genia not playing I think will have a massive impact on Australia. He can be world class and I'm not sure they'll be able to release there backs in the same way without him

 

[spartan32]

So how important is this game to England?

Personally I think it comes at a critical time. If we can turn over a resurgent Aussie side, with almost half our starters out, and go unbeaten over 12 months, then we really do start to look like a team that could beat anyone in the world, with proven strength in depth and ability to adapt to any given situation. And we still look like there's plenty of room for improvement which will only serve to make us more dangerous as time goes on.

However should we fall short, although not world ending, it would create a psychological chink in our armour and with no follow up game to lay doubts to rest that sort of thing could fester and cause damage. It would also break that sense we are becoming unbeatable. I also very much like EJs comparison to a World Cup. To get through the pool you need to win four matches in a row, and this is a chance for us to do that and demonstrate how far we've come since that terrible WC performance.

Finally nothing would be better then to properly silence the colonials after all their chat for so many years. And nothing would be worse then giving them half a chance to start it up again.