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[November Tests 2016 EOYT] England vs. Argentina (26/11/2016)

Fair point. I thought Zebo had a head injury. In any event I stand by my leniency comments

I've never said that I agree with the decision, just explained how it was reached within the disciplinary framework that is in place. As I've noted in this thread, I believe that much of the rationale behind assessing this as a low end offence was that it didn't cause an injury. I've disagreed with this way of thinking since the Martin Johnson vs Robbie Russell incident clarified things in my head. Irrespective of intent, what Fekitoa did could have had very serious consequences for Simon Zebo, so in effect he has got lucky that it didn't cause injury despite the fact that he did exactly the same thing that has caused injury in the past.

I understand that the same occurs in real world law, I'm not sure that I always agree with it in that context and certainly don't in a rugby context.
 
LOS PUMAS: 1-Lucas Noguera Paz, 2-Agustín Creevy (c), 3-Ramiro Herrera, 4-Guido Petti, 5-Matías Alemanno, 6-Pablo Matera, 7-Javier Ortega Desio, 8-Leonardo Senatore, 9-Tomás Cubelli, 10-Juan Martín Hernández, 11-Santiago Cordero, 12-Santiago González Iglesias, 13-Matías Moroni, 14-Matías Orlando, 15-Joaquín Tuculet.

Suplentes: 16-Julián Montoya, 17-Santiago García Botta, 18-Enrique Pieretto, 19-Facundo Isa, 20-Tomás Lezana, 21-Martín Landajo, 22-Jerónimo De la Fuente, 23-Juan Pablo Estelles.
 
When will the real Pumas team show up for the Autumn Internationals?
This has not been the same team that was contesting the Rugby Championship.
 
When will the real Pumas team show up for the Autumn Internationals?
This has not been the same team that was contesting the Rugby Championship.

When you look at the results the other RC sides have had maybe it's just that the RC isn't as good as people thought :p
 
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Maybe, or perhaps people in the northern hemisphere forget that the AI don't mean that much to the southern hemisphere teams.
There is no trophy at stake. No silverware to be won and the teams that come up are either suffering from long season fatigue or they have a variety of new 'greenhorn' players to blood for the development of the squad, or both.

Thats why so few northern hemisphere teams do well in the southern hemisphere when they tour after their long club championship series with the 6 nations in the middle of it.
It's hard to know where England are at the moment, they had a great tour of Australia 4-5 months ago, record breaking stuff following on from a strong showing in the 6 Nations, but how much of that has been because of the sheer embarrassment their quality players were feeling after they couldn't beat Wales at Twickenham and get out of their own pool at the RWC.?
Once that embarrassment wears off as a motivating factor will England lack the drive to reach their true potential or ultimate goal.?? ;-)
 
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When you look at the results the other RC sides have had maybe it's just that the RC isn't as good as people thought :p
I know you're kidding, but he does have a point.
It's not just the results, it's the style. During the RC lost half the games, but everyone who faced us knew we'd score 3 tries against them. If they scored more (very likely), they'd win. We played open, offensive rugby and gave (a lot of) advantages on defense.
Now we can barely score one try against Scotland.

it's as if we lost the plot, again.

I mean, look at the team we're fielding. I have no idea what is going through Hourcade's head.
 
Maybe, or perhaps people in the northern hemisphere forget that the AI don't mean that much to the southern hemisphere teams.
There is no trophy at stake. No silverware to be won and the teams that come up are either suffering from long season fatigue or they have a variety of new 'greenhorn' players to blood for the development of the squad, or both.

Thats why so few northern hemisphere teams do well in the southern hemisphere when they tour after their long club championship series with the 6 nations in the middle of it.
It's hard to know where England are at the moment, they had a great tour of Australia 4-5 months ago, record breaking stuff following on from a strong showing in the 6 Nations, but how much of that has been because of the sheer embarrassment their quality players were feeling after they couldn't beat Wales at Twickenham and get out of their own pool at the RWC.?
Once that embarrassment wears off as a motivating factor will England lack the drive to reach their true potential or ultimate goal.?? ;-)

Tosh! These AIs count a great deal for all teams concerned with the WC draw looking large on the horizon and no one wanting to be in a pool of death. Additionally we smashed the Aussies after a long season and having grand slammed the 6 nations. No need to make excuses up front. You're about to play the no. 2 team in the word at home. Just take your beating like a man and we shall say no more about it.
 
Maybe, or perhaps people in the northern hemisphere forget that the AI don't mean that much to the southern hemisphere teams.
There is no trophy at stake. No silverware to be won and the teams that come up are either suffering from long season fatigue or they have a variety of new 'greenhorn' players to blood for the development of the squad, or both.

Thats why so few northern hemisphere teams do well in the southern hemisphere when they tour after their long club championship series with the 6 nations in the middle of it.
It's hard to know where England are at the moment, they had a great tour of Australia 4-5 months ago, record breaking stuff following on from a strong showing in the 6 Nations, but how much of that has been because of the sheer embarrassment their quality players were feeling after they couldn't beat Wales at Twickenham and get out of their own pool at the RWC.?
Once that embarrassment wears off as a motivating factor will England lack the drive to reach their true potential or ultimate goal.?? ;-)
Looks remarkably similar to the "excuses" the SH have dismissed as whining from the NH every June for the last 15-20 years.
Sorry, not quite - we never claimed that the match therefore didn't matter



Spartan - my in-laws will love your claim that France are the 2nd best team in the world; big claim there
 
You're having a laugh if you think any team doesn't care about either the summer or autumn internationals. Just because there's no silverware to be won doesn't diminish their importance. I guarantee you every Kiwi, Ozzie and Bok (and Puma) are determined to win their games and would be fairly disappointed if they didn't.
 
In the Pumas i think 2 things are happening. 1) This is the same team that played SR/4N and now this. Players are burn down. Some of them Have not missed a game. 2) Hourcade changed the gameplay for this tests, they closed ranks and tried to power through vertically instead of cleaning fast the contact and opening the game, a mistake.

Basically no new players have come to Pumas this year(one or 2) they should have played a 2nd side against Japan at least. Probably at this rate you will never see a good Pumas team in this window unless we played Europe players also or we open a 2nd franchise.

PS. As a fan i get upset about this but i prefer to lose here and win at least 3 matches on 4N or have more new players on Jags.
 
It would seem the team has been announced. Wood back in, as is Brown Kruis and May. So starting team.

1.Cole 2. Hartley 3. Mako
4. Laws 5. Kruis
6. Robshaw 7. Wood 8. Billy
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Faz
13. JJ
14. May
15. Brown

Harrison apparently dropped to the bench (surely nearing last chance saloon for him) Teo and Slade also sitting in the bench.

Nothing too surprising there, apart form Kruis's miraculous recovery.

Two things.

You always get your loose head and tight the wrong way round, please get it right my OCD is going wild.

Second thing, why would Harrison be in last chance saloon? Jones has stated he rates him, he just needs work. He's still a young improving player after his breakthrough season, hardly last chance saloon.
 
I know you're kidding, but he does have a point.
It's not just the results, it's the style. During the RC lost half the games, but everyone who faced us knew we'd score 3 tries against them. If they scored more (very likely), they'd win. We played open, offensive rugby and gave (a lot of) advantages on defense.
Now we can barely score one try against Scotland.

it's as if we lost the plot, again.

I mean, look at the team we're fielding. I have no idea what is going through Hourcade's head.

I will never forget watching Hourcade hit the wall with his fist when Scotland was granted that last penalty at the end of the match. That sort of attitude tells me he knows he has no control over the team's current situation and that he cannot bring any kind of confidence to the team as he cannot even show confident himself.
 
Two things.

You always get your loose head and tight the wrong way round, please get it right my OCD is going wild.

Second thing, why would Harrison be in last chance saloon? Jones has stated he rates him, he just needs work. He's still a young improving player after his breakthrough season, hardly last chance saloon.

I'm a back. So care not for the correct numbering of forwards. But point taken.

As for Harrison. He's been pulled after 30 mins, then had an uninspiring game against a weak side and has since been dropped to the bench. That to me shows a slow and steady decline into nothingness. He's certainly no where near where Hask was before he was injured and not a touch on Robshaw either. Quite frankly he seems weak and out of his league. The only thing that seems to be keeping him in contention is current lack of competition for the place due to injury. Prof in point would be Roko. Class act but too much competition in the position so deopped
 
I'm a back. So care not for the correct numbering of forwards. But point taken.

As for Harrison. He's been pulled after 30 mins, then had an uninspiring game against a weak side and has since been dropped to the bench. That to me shows a slow and steady decline into nothingness. He's certainly no where near where Hask was before he was injured and not a touch on Robshaw either. Quite frankly he seems weak and out of his league. The only thing that seems to be keeping him in contention is current lack of competition for the place due to injury. Prof in point would be Roko. Class act but too much competition in the position so deopped

God I hope our age group starts churning out good flankers soon... Why couldn't Underhill have gone to a good old English Uni, or at least signed for Bath and just hopped across the bridge every so often?
 
God I hope our age group starts churning out good flankers soon... Why couldn't Underhill have gone to a good old English Uni, or at least signed for Bath and just hopped across the bridge every so often?

Age Groups 7's look decent prospects.
Evans
Ludlam
Simmonds

Personally I feel Ludlam needs to move on he isn't even on the bench for Saints.
 
Hughes has a leg injury and was released because of it. The fact he's had a leg injury reported for a few weeks now, I wonder if he didn't have one in the very first game as well.

With regards to Roko, Jones says he likes a pace man and a working man on the wings. Roko is not a working man for me. If I had to choose between May and Roko, I think I'd take May, then I'm going to take Daly over Roko.
 
Tosh! These AIs count a great deal for all teams concerned with the WC draw looking large on the horizon and no one wanting to be in a pool of death.

How do you figure that?
We were no.1 heading into the AI's and we will be no.1 when they're done. It's not bravado or some such nonsense, its just mathematics.
The AI's are a bit of fun, they let touring teams blood new players and they can be a good earner but they're nowhere near as important as the Super Rugby ***le and the Rugby Championship ***le thanks very much.
They are not as important as the Bledisloe Cup.


Additionally we smashed the Aussies after a long season

You did and it was an excellent achievement , no question.
We also played them a little while later and ran up a massive score against them in their own backyard. We then went on to beat them 3 times in a row. Nothing new for us...

... and having grand slammed the 6 nations.

These days if can beat Ireland you get a Grand Slam. Sorry Wales but thats pretty much the size of the 6 Nations. It's a grand old girl of a competition but it's looking long overdue a massive overhaul and as long as it continues masquerading as the pre-eminent major tournament outside of the RWC then all of the NH teams will stay a little behind the teams in the RC in regards to preparation for a RWC.
That can be enough. Week in , week out long distance travelling and the adversity of knowing you have to play away every year. It mentally and physically toughens the teams into dealing with the conditions created in a RWC.
Argentina have made great strides in just 2-3 years in the RC. It requires an enormous effort and so I'm not surprised to see their intensity dip.


That bloody Olly. He started this and then he runs off into the night like a robbers dog !!

Embarrassment.
Now I was serious about this aspect when referring to how the English team is bringing a new motivation to their play this year and it occurs to me that the prime element for motivation in recent times has been the unfortunate outcome of England's RWC performance, particularly as the hosts.
South Africa tried to take away the lime light from England with their confrontation with Japan early on but nothing could eclipse the unmitigated disaster of not getting out of your own pool, in your home RWC.
It was devastating.
England were like the powder puff girls getting pushed around by Australia and Wales.
So who better to bring in as a manager than the arch rival of the powder puff girls, Eddie 'Mojo JoJo'.
He sorted the team positions, kept the vast majority of the players (because the playing staff are very good) and lifted the mental set straight away.
The mad dog kiwi hooker was made captain (great choice) and Christopher was demoted to snuggling Pooh Bear at the side of the scrum where he could focus on his game (great decision)
The 'Embarrassment' of the RWC debacle was not been forgotten. It was instead used as a motivational tool to get the players up for each match and away went Mojo JoJo, lifting his charges for each game as they steadily knocked down the pins in the 6 Nations. Then the big foray into Aussie where Mojo JoJo learned his dark arts.
Aussie seemed to be incredibly blasé' about the 'Poms' coming to town.
Why?
Why would you make a 'promotional video' for a three test series with England where you trot out former Wallaby greats and use them to ridicule Englands performance of just a few short months ago?
They were already using it as a motivating element and Michael Cheika played straight into the hands of the English squads psyche. What more reason could you ask for to stick it right up the Convicts.
Its just craziness to give your opponents an axe to grind but thats how the Aussies like to conduct themselves and it backfired in a massive way.
Ok two of the games were close but England refused to submit at any point and came away with three straight test wins, a whitewash.
The key to motivating the team to winning ways?
Embarrassment.

The All Blacks.
2007.
RWC quarter final. One of the finest AB teams ever assembled took to the field as heavy favourites to send the French across the channel in a hurry and the upset saw the AB's swatted out of the tournament in their worst ever effort.
Mega 'Embarrassment.'
The players were devastated.
However, that abject failure , and the embarrassment garnered from it, motivated the AB's to develop themselves into a unit that could go on to win the next two Rugby World Cups, back to back, home and away.

Who knows where England can kick on from here under Mojo JOJO but they certainly don't appear to be the powder puff girls they were 12 months ago.
 
Jones I have one thing to say to you. Massive Tosh! This pretence that cocky SH supporters and teams have that playing the quaint NH is just a laugh is none sense. When NZ lost to Ireland they were shell shocked and gutted. And then Hansen called the next game a "must win". Not a "ah it doesn't matter too much" attitude. NZs most powerful weapon was at steak, their so called unbeatable aura (alongside their ability to cheat at a masters Degree level). Had they lost a second time blood would be in the water and Hansen new it.

Their are no "friendlies" in rugby. Especially not between the big teams. Sure there may not be any silverware to take home but the steaks are still high. It's not like teams are trotting out second string sides to play England or Ireland etc. Yes a few new faces come out but that's usually it (granted the NZ italy game was an exception).

I agree that the 6 nations needs looking at but not for the reasons you state. It's time we started rob being other nations, especially Georgia, into the fold and expand the influence of the game we love.

So NZ can sit pretty on their throne for now facing teams further down the table who are weakened through restructuring and injury. But make no mistake. England are coming for you, and hells coming with us.
 
I'm a back. So care not for the correct numbering of forwards. But point taken.

As for Harrison. He's been pulled after 30 mins, then had an uninspiring game against a weak side and has since been dropped to the bench. That to me shows a slow and steady decline into nothingness. He's certainly no where near where Hask was before he was injured and not a touch on Robshaw either. Quite frankly he seems weak and out of his league. The only thing that seems to be keeping him in contention is current lack of competition for the place due to injury. Prof in point would be Roko. Class act but too much competition in the position so deopped

I don't know if that argument really stacks up. Roko is back at back and we only have 1 winger in the 23. That's not competition, that Jones states Roko isn't good enough for international rugby with Jones' England. Harrison on the other hand has been continually kept in the squad even though his form doesn't warrant it. I'm not saying Harrison is good for England or not, I'm just saying Jones obviously rates him.

Completely agree with you assessment of him though. Looked underpowered and lost at points, but there is potential for this young lad.
 
How do you figure that?
We were no.1 heading into the AI's and we will be no.1 when they're done. It's not bravado or some such nonsense, its just mathematics.
The AI's are a bit of fun, they let touring teams blood new players and they can be a good earner but they're nowhere near as important as the Super Rugby ***le and the Rugby Championship ***le thanks very much.
They are not as important as the Bledisloe Cup.

But that is only true for New Zealand though, not the entire SH. There has been a lot of movement in this period as a result of the EOYT matches and it is definitely something that almost all teams have to take into account, just not New Zealand and England really. I also don't really think it's fair to say one hemisphere values this more than the other. Both have their own tournaments which obviously mean more to them, but both want to be dominant against the opposing Hemispheres and these are the only opportunity to do so. I think both hemispheres care equally as much towards this cross hemisphere matches, just one set of players are more tired than the others in each period (NH in June/July, SH in November).
 

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