[November Tests 2016 EOYT] England vs. Argentina (26/11/2016)

[Colombia]

Very risky game for England. Argentina played well at Twickenham against Australia, and a language neutral French ref will help them.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Argentina are not showing the same focus in attack that they evidenced during the RC.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Also did you see the amount of space Roko had to cover? He was already in a weak position because nobody else in defence was helping on his side and he came in because we had FORD standing as the first guard next to the breakdown on Rokos side with no other players in support...

It was always going to be an uphill battle with Goode at 15,
One of the big issues with Goode's previous international caps is his positioning was terrible and he doesn't have the speed to cover the required distance that his poor positioning needs. I've said it before, but I'll never forget how well France exploited this pre-RWC, and just kicked over the top until we had to put extra players back and were left lacking out wide.
It's pretty strange considering I've never noticed it be an issue for Saracens, and England have had Saracens defence coaches for a few years now. But c'est la vie.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Will the ghost of Maggie be hanging over this game?
She's only down the road from Twickenham in Mortlake.

 

[spartan32]

Roko WTF!!! There's just no excuse good enough to drop him. His D. Was not that bad and the rest of his game is easily good enough to warrant selection given the current injuries. May be a different story if Watson and Nowell were back, but even then surely he's a consideration. His bloody AP stats speak for themselves. I wish I knew what EJ was thinking.

Good to see Daly get another start, and Goode not. But the lack of back three cover is a concern. Especially if May or Daly go as that would leave us with no pace on one wing and stunt our attacking potential.

Hope Teo gets more game time as I'd like a better look at him. He's clearly got some big hits in him but is he just another Barrett. All defence and no flair win attack?

As always in EJ we trust. But still say Roko is hard done by.

 

[Which Tyler]

I find it absoluitely amazing how the best defensive back 3 player in the EPS is getting pilloried for poor defence. Of those in and around the squad only Nowell makes more tackles per match (6.1 vs 5.0); and yet Roko's tackle success rate is notably higher (93% vs 85%). This myth that 2-3 people have about Roko being a poor defender is purely mythical; it is not based on statistical analysis, and not based on the evidence of eyes watch rugby matches.

It can only be age - which IMO is overly harsh, given that he's had 4 years of elite rugby, not 10

 

[Jakedood]

I find it absoluitely amazing how the best defensive back 3 player in the EPS is getting pilloried for poor defence. Of those in and around the squad only Nowell makes more tackles per match (6.1 vs 5.0); and yet Roko's tackle success rate is notably higher (93% vs 85%). This myth that 2-3 people have about Roko being a poor defender is purely mythical; it is not based on statistical analysis, and not based on the evidence of eyes watch rugby matches.

It can only be age - which IMO is overly harsh, given that he's had 4 years of elite rugby, not 10

Could be because Daly had an awesome game on the wing as well... I figure Joins may now consider Roko ahead of Yarde for instance, and the bench could be less for cover than a tactical idea? Not sure, but let's see what Jones does, he could also have given roko some areas he needs to work on, and have him come back in a stronger player

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I find it absoluitely amazing how the best defensive back 3 player in the EPS is getting pilloried for poor defence. Of those in and around the squad only Nowell makes more tackles per match (6.1 vs 5.0); and yet Roko's tackle success rate is notably higher (93% vs 85%). This myth that 2-3 people have about Roko being a poor defender is purely mythical; it is not based on statistical analysis, and not based on the evidence of eyes watch rugby matches.

It can only be age - which IMO is overly harsh, given that he's had 4 years of elite rugby, not 10

Really watch then game at the weekend and look at his positioning and what he is doing off the ball. It's not his tackling it's his positioning and maybe that's just the pressure of cap 2 or maybe he can't work in Jones' system. Either way Daley outplayed Roko at the weekend.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Really watch then game at the weekend and look at his positioning and what he is doing off the ball. It's not his tackling it's his positioning and maybe that's just the pressure of cap 2 or maybe he can't work in Jones' system. Either way Daley outplayed Roko at the weekend.

Positioning in what sense? Can you think of examples? I'll be honest, I can't be arsed trawling back through 80 minutes to see his positioning, if you can point me to any specific incidents I'd be interested to see. FWIW my impression was that he wasnt' perfect (and the tackle for Nakarawa's try was a shocker) although I wouldn't say "headless chicken"

 

[ncurd]

Bath players can't defend....I thought you knew this?

 

[FLOBALOB]

Not sure if it is of any relevance, but Nowell was called in earlier in the week for an assessment of his fitness. Maybe EJ was hoping to include him for Aussie game, at the least.
I think Rokos age is a big factor, with it being unlikely he'd be anywhere near being first /second or even third choice come the WC in three years time, as he's only 4/5 choice now (fitness allowing). EJ has got to have half an eye on 3 years time regarding all selections now.
I also think the sooner Hartley is relieved of his shirt and the captaincy the better, for the same reason.

 

[NickBD]

I think Hartley has been playing well this year for England, wouldn't say he deserves to be dropped. I think he's captaincy has been top notch too.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Bath players can't defend....I thought you knew this?

It crossed my mind, I didn't want to sound all tinfoil hat though ... !

Farrell, of course is a great defender, hence his dominant tackle on the Fijian 12 to stop the attack dead just before they didn't score that third try

 

[Jakedood]

Not sure if it is of any relevance, but Nowell was called in earlier in the week for an assessment of his fitness. Maybe EJ was hoping to include him for Aussie game, at the least.
I think Rokos age is a big factor, with it being unlikely he'd be anywhere near being first /second or even third choice come the WC in three years time, as he's only 4/5 choice now (fitness allowing). EJ has got to have half an eye on 3 years time regarding all selections now.
I also think the sooner Hartley is relieved of his shirt and the captaincy the better, for the same reason.

Hartley, and I noticed this with Brown gone at the weekend, are good for England for a few reasons, but mostly because they're incredibly dogged, hard as nails characters who dont back down... notice how much more passive england's defense was without Brown at full back yesterday, How much less confrontational England were as a whole? I'd imagine it's the same with Hartley gone, however Im a huge fan of George, think he's everything Hartley's got and some more added skills

 

[Every Time Ref]

Not sure if it is of any relevance, but Nowell was called in earlier in the week for an assessment of his fitness. Maybe EJ was hoping to include him for Aussie game, at the least.
I think Rokos age is a big factor, with it being unlikely he'd be anywhere near being first /second or even third choice come the WC in three years time, as he's only 4/5 choice now (fitness allowing). EJ has got to have half an eye on 3 years time regarding all selections now.
I also think the sooner Hartley is relieved of his shirt and the captaincy the better, for the same reason.

That's just circular logic though, he's fifth choice now therefore he won't be first choice in future therefore he should stay fifth choice now etc. etc. etc.

 

[spartan32]

Cane cited but not banned for a high tackle resulting in a serious injury to another player, and Fakitowa given one week ban for his terrible high tackle on Zebo also resulting in injury, and apparently should have been shown red on the day. I am getting sick and tired of NZ being let off the hook for foul and dangerous play. Recent stat suggests the most international teams average 12 penalties to one yellow, where as NZ it's 47!! It seems refs and world rugby have been caught up in the AB aura. I wonder how many results would have changed had they been punished in line with everyone else.

How can Launch get a greater ban for his offence!! If I were England I'd be putting in a serious complaint. If Fakatowa gets one week, Launch should get one week and be available for the Aus game.

 

[spartan32]

Regarding Roko. If age is a factor why does EJ play him at all? Pick players you actually intend to use and develop. What's the point in taking him away from Bath, who are suffering without him, just to mess about give him a soft cap against a weak opponent. And then not cap him for a more challenging game to see what he can do? Thinking back on the game I don't see that his defence and positioning were all that bad. He's great under the high ball, strong in the tackle, and lethal in attack with great feet and pace. Jones could have put Daly at 15 and played Roko with May, which sounds like a pretty potent back three to me. If I were Roko I think I'd just call it a day and walk away from England altogether and focus on my club who actually value him.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Cane cited but not banned for a high tackle resulting in a serious injury to another player, and Fakitowa given one week ban for his terrible high tackle on Zebo also resulting in injury, and apparently should have been shown red on the day. I am getting sick and tired of NZ being let off the hook for foul and dangerous play. Recent stat suggests the most international teams average 12 penalties to one yellow, where as NZ it's 47!! It seems refs and world rugby have been caught up in the AB aura. I wonder how many results would have changed had they been punished in line with everyone else.

How can Launch get a greater ban for his offence!! If I were England I'd be putting in a serious complaint. If Fakatowa gets one week, Launch should get one week and be available for the Aus game.

Seriously? What a joke... How the hell can Launchbury with a clean record and a guilty plea get a harsher penalty than Fakatowa who was every bit as reckless in a game full of questionable acts.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Whether we think its right or not, its clear that Roko does not feature in Jones plans. Having reached that conclusion its totally logical that Jones concentrates on those that do. Harsh, but that's international sport.

Jones results allow him a lot of latitude, but some of his selections have been downright mystifying. But he's only a year in and is still in the period of having a good look to see who he really wants.

 

[Which Tyler]

Really watch then game at the weekend and look at his positioning and what he is doing off the ball. It's not his tackling it's his positioning and maybe that's just the pressure of cap 2 or maybe he can't work in Jones' system. Either way Daley outplayed Roko at the weekend.

You'll boviously be suirprised to hear this - but I have watched the game, a copule of times actually - I simply disagree with you.
This may seem shocking, but ithappens all the time that different people can see the same thing and come to different conclusions.