[November Tests 2016 EOYT] England vs. Argentina (26/11/2016)

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Hernandez has taken a pay cut to play for his country and that deserves respect. But a kick orientated 12 just doesn't seem a great tactic. Farrell for England and Foley (briefly) for Oz are exceptions but isn't like to see a more muscular and athletic 12 for Argentina with Hernandez a substitute for 10 or 12. I can see Argentina keeping this close and honestly think they can beat any team in their world on their best day. But only with some of their RC form, not the poor stuff of the last two games. Surprised and disappointed to see Argentina regress since the RC, I really thought they'd improve each game under Hourcade.

 

[spartan32]

Sorry but all this softening up the game is tosh! It's a tough hard game, that's the point. If people don't like it, don't play. Kids need to be taught varying tackle techniques young so they get it right. Also, when smaller, they are much less likely to do any serious damage if they get it wrong.

As for the men's game the current laws seem fine to me.

As for our chances on saturday I expect a solid win. I must admit I haven't watched much Argentinian rugby of late but their results have hardly been inspiring, and we are looking strong. I'd imagine EJ will plumb for a more dynamic game, moving the ball fast, and avoiding and arm wrestle up front. Keeping fingers crossed for blue skies

 

[TheSaffycen]

For this game we must keep a strong side, hoping no one else gets injured.
1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Cole
4.Lawes 5.Kruis
6.Robshaw 7.Harrison 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 12.Farrell 13.JJ
11.May 15.Daly 14.Roko

16.Hartley 17.Marler 18.Sinkler 19.Ewels 20.Hughes 21.Care 22.Slade 23.Te'o

Reason for Hartley moving is George is the better carrier and passer, and you keep most of the basics. The backs pick themselves, keep the game quick and attack the slow Hernandez and forward pack.

 

[FNS]

Hernandez has taken a pay cut to play for his country and that deserves respect. But a kick orientated 12 just doesn't seem a great tactic. Farrell for England and Foley (briefly) for Oz are exceptions but isn't like to see a more muscular and athletic 12 for Argentina with Hernandez a substitute for 10 or 12. I can see Argentina keeping this close and honestly think they can beat any team in their world on their best day. But only with some of their RC form, not the poor stuff of the last two games. Surprised and disappointed to see Argentina regress since the RC, I really thought they'd improve each game under Hourcade.

We dont have a replacement at 12 right now. 2 starters wings are out so Moroni fills the gap and Hernandez goes 12. As for the RC form maybe in a year or two depending how many players we can train on SR/4N. We are missing a lot several NH players.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

24 players that have been retained by England:

Forwards (14)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs (10)
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

XV
1. Mako
2. Hartley (c)
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Kruis
6. Robshaw
7. Harrison/Wood
8. Binny
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Daly
15. Brown

16. George
17. Marler
18. Sinckler
19. Ewels
20. Hughes
21. Care
22. Te'o
23. Slade

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Goode out. That'll do me.

Edit: Roko also. Bit harsh.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Roko gone, huge surprise. He made mistakes but damn he has more natural ability to any other winger we have bar maybe Watson. Doubt he will ever see the England shirt again now.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, very disappointed at no Roko.
Should be at least on the bench - we've two centres (and a third on the pitch) and no back three cover.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Aye, very disappointed at no Roko.
Should be at least on the bench - we've two centres (and a third on the pitch) and no back three cover.

Pretty unbelievable. 1 back three injury and we're potentially looking at 3 fly halves in midfield, and 2 centres in the back three.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Pretty unbelievable. 1 back three injury and we're potentially looking at 3 fly halves in midfield, and 2 centres in the back three.

And yet... I still have total faith in Eddie Jones. It's odd and it's going to end sometime, but he's not put a foot wrong yet (enough to lose a game anyway).

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Hernandez has taken a pay cut to play for his country and that deserves respect. But a kick orientated 12 just doesn't seem a great tactic. Farrell for England and Foley (briefly) for Oz are exceptions but isn't like to see a more muscular and athletic 12 for Argentina with Hernandez a substitute for 10 or 12. I can see Argentina keeping this close and honestly think they can beat any team in their world on their best day. But only with some of their RC form, not the poor stuff of the last two games. Surprised and disappointed to see Argentina regress since the RC, I really thought they'd improve each game under Hourcade.

I'd take a pay cut to play for the Pumas/Jaguares. Should be be respected for that too?
I'm exaggerating, but i'm sure you get the point. You do not get paid on your effort. You get paid on your added value and his is quite low.

Don't get me wrong, i respect him because he definitely tries, but

-his skill set is not up to the task anymore
-He is not going to improve, actually, chances are he will get worse and the world cup is 3 years away. At this point I'd rather take chances with someone new.

Can you imagine Hernandez playing in Japan's WC? That's nightmare material for us. I see no reason whatsoever to use him. None. I do not believe he is the best center we can bring to the table for 2019's WC and all of this, ALL of this, RC, SR, Jaguares, Pumas, Friendlies, the lot, is nothing but a preparation for that.

I'll never forget what he did for us in 2007 and for that i'll be eternally grateful. Having said that, our national team should not be the place for have beens and i'm afraid that is what he is right now.
If anyone with his exact set of skills came around with a different face and surname, he will never make the team.
Again, grateful but time to move on.

 

[TW27BA]

Is he being saved for Australia? That is the only thing I can think of as he did pretty well last week.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Is he being saved for Australia? That is the only thing I can think of as he did pretty well last week.

Doubt he'd be saving a player that's had 1 game of international rugby in the last 2 years. It's more likely that he'd be cramming in as much game time for him as possible to get him used to the set up. Roko's time, sadly enough, is over.

 

[Scotty]

Anyone have a comprehensive injury list for england in each position? I would leave mako billy on the bench and start marler and hughes. Mako, billy, george and sinkler as an impact bench. Very mobile and powerful. Any thoughts?

Plus less game time leaves them fresher for the Aus game

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Is he being saved for Australia? That is the only thing I can think of as he did pretty well last week.

I think it's more the fact he was a headless chicken when not in attack. Something that can be taught but not quickly.

 

[TW27BA]

I think it's more the fact he was a headless chicken when not in attack. Something that can be taught but not quickly.

A certain Chris Ashton had a few chances.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Headless chicken is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it's more the fact he was a headless chicken when not in attack. Something that can be taught but not quickly.

He hasn't had that problem at Bath so I don't think it's something fundamentally wrong with his ability to defend or where to stand, it's just the system may be different enough to Bath's that it takes time to adapt. I seem to recall 4 English players failing to make a simple tackle for the other try along with Farrell and Goode failing to tackle for the 3rd yet only Roko gets pilloried for a problem when defending? Then you have the English players who infringed giving Fiji the penalties they needed to get that close to our try line or the English players in midfield who missed some simply tackles allowing Fijian players to run right through unopposed, where are the comments about their problems in defence? Considering players we've had who were far worse in defence (Ashton, Yarde) I find dropping him for this to be ridiculous. It was one game where he knew he may not get another chance and now it seems what we've been saying is true, Jones had been looking for any excuse to drop him and now he has it. When a player feels they can't make any mistakes, they tend to make more.

Also did you see the amount of space Roko had to cover? He was already in a weak position because nobody else in defence was helping on his side and he came in because we had FORD standing as the first guard next to the breakdown on Rokos side with no other players in support...

 

[Colombia]

I'd take a pay cut to play for the Pumas/Jaguares. Should be be respected for that too?
I'm exaggerating, but i'm sure you get the point. You do not get paid on your effort. You get paid on your added value and his is quite low.

Don't get me wrong, i respect him because he definitely tries, but

-his skill set is not up to the task anymore
-He is not going to improve, actually, chances are he will get worse and the world cup is 3 years away. At this point I'd rather take chances with someone new.

Can you imagine Hernandez playing in Japan's WC? That's nightmare material for us. I see no reason whatsoever to use him. None. I do not believe he is the best center we can bring to the table for 2019's WC and all of this, ALL of this, RC, SR, Jaguares, Pumas, Friendlies, the lot, is nothing but a preparation for that.

I'll never forget what he did for us in 2007 and for that i'll be eternally grateful. Having said that, our national team should not be the place for have beens and i'm afraid that is what he is right now.
If anyone with his exact set of skills came around with a different face and surname, he will never make the team.
Again, grateful but time to move on.

Argentina are weak in attack without Hernandez, his handling ability opens up defenses.