New Zealand Haka Is Arrogance?

[ranger]

But it's not your anthem - it's an additional challenge, one that is designed to intimidate and my suggestion is simply that that challenge should be responded to not just meekly accepted as is now expected. The fact that it doesn't is by the by however, there are factors to it's existence and timing that gives a psychological advantage to the performers. It's not performed by invitation - it is simply a tradition that nobody dare refuse (look at the fussed caused when the Welsh did). It's your team that want it, that gain from it and the fact it's accompanied by expectation and arrogance is why there is so much debate on it continuing.

As for your last point, comparing the home and away records of teams in leagues, competitions and sports around the world will tell you the advantage of a home crowd.

-Designed to intimidate? Must be lucky for the All Blacks that Maori got together 600 odd years ago and decided to "design" a dance to intimidate rugby players..
-So what if its not an anthem? Does something have to fall under your european interpretation of an anthem for you to respect it? Maori didn't have anthems, that was a european invention. They did haka though, but since it isn't what you interpret as an "anthem" its alright for 70000 people to yell over the top of it?
-What honour do you see in an entire stadium drowning out 22 people?
-It IS done by invitation, theres no arguement about that its just fact. Look it up. The haka is only done at the invitation of the hosts.

I would agree that even just the players singing their way through it would be enough but I don't think you'd ever get the entire crowd singing outwith the anthems anyway. And the reason that Scots Wha Hae appeals to me is that is starts off on a very low quiet tone, almost under your breath, so wouldn't be so obviously intrusive as yelling out (not that FoS is particularly shouty either). I just don't think it should be taken unopposed, and to me that doesn't seem to even be within the spirit of it, so some form or crowd response during or immediately afterwards would be accepting the challenge and enhance the tradition. What I don't like however, is crowds booing during the haka (it is intentionally disrespectful rather than an acceptance of the challenge) and that does seem to be creeping more and more into things and was notably loud during the Irish match this autumn - perhaps encouraging some form of more positive response would stop this before it becomes worse.

-It doesn't matter how low the tone is or how shouty a song is. If 70000 people are doing it, then the 22 guys doing the haka aren't going to be heard at all. This is just fairly simple maths at play now.
-The crowd isn't playing. The All Blacks arent directing the haka at the west grandstand.
The crowd doesn't need to respond at all. Leave it to your players they can fight their own battles.

 

[nickdnz]

But it's not your anthem - it's an additional challenge, one that is designed to intimidate and my suggestion is simply that that challenge should be responded to not just meekly accepted as is now expected. The fact that it doesn't really intimidate is by the by however, there are factors to it's existence and timing that gives a psychological advantage to the performers. It's not performed by invitation - it is simply a tradition that nobody dare refuse (look at the fussed caused when the Welsh did). It's your team that want it, that gain from it and the fact it's accompanied by expectation and arrogance is why there is so much debate on it continuing.

As for your last point, comparing the home and away records of teams in leagues, competitions and sports around the world will tell you the advantage of a home crowd.

Continued ignorence. It is in fact performed by invitation. The Haka is a reason why the All Blacks sell out every year, and Australia and South Africa often do not. It proved an atmosphere and generates larger auidences. It's not the only factor, but it is a contributing one. Idiots will often think that Ka Mate is a war dance or challenge, their wrong. It's a song about whether to fight and die or run and hide, in which hide was chosen. It's a homage to Maori culture more than a challenge.

Your second point is also silly, as because a team does the Haka, their still going to be playing against a home crowd. From the time the ball is kicked off, crowds will still support their team, whether it is Loftus, Murryfield or Millenium stadium. Saying the a Haka is somehow going to give the All Blacks a significant psychological edge is rubbish. And if the ignorent want to take it as a challenge, surely that would motivate them just as much as the All Blacks?

 

[hiz]

-Designed to intimidate? Must be lucky for the All Blacks that Maori got together 600 odd years ago and decided to "design" a dance to intimidate rugby players..
-So what if its not an anthem? Does something have to fall under your european interpretation of an anthem for you to respect it? Maori didn't have anthems, that was a european invention. They did haka though, but since it isn't what you interpret as an "anthem" its alright for 70000 people to yell over the top of it?
-What honour do you see in an entire stadium drowning out 22 people?
-It IS done by invitation, theres no arguement about that its just fact. Look it up. The haka is only done at the invitation of the hosts.



-It doesn't matter how low the tone is or how shouty a song is. If 70000 people are doing it, then the 22 guys doing the haka aren't going to be heard at all. This is just fairly simple maths at play now.
-The crowd isn't playing. The All Blacks arent directing the haka at the west grandstand.
The crowd doesn't need to respond at all. Leave it to your players they can fight their own battles.

It's a war dance sweetie - that is kinda designed to intimidate regardless of its present usage.

It is not your anthem sweetie, because you perform your anthem then you perform the haka as well. If you're happy for everyone else to have a second anthem when they play you, or want to do without the first one, then cool but otherwise, it cannot be treated as such in this context.

It may be by invitation in theory sweetie but not in practice. It's a nice tradition but nobody cares that much about it that they'd actively invite it, give away advantage, have their players cool down and increase the risk of injury, add in delays for the TV producers, etc. if it were not as a courtesy to the visitors. And it is a courtesy that comes with a degree of arm twisting.

And once more, sweetie, your last argument is just a nonsense. Using that logic there would be no such thing as spectator sports - or if there were, they'd all be played in arenas which were as quiet as a library.

It's sad sweetie, that you feel the need to try and make this a cultural or racial issue when it is clearly no such thing. Regardless of it's origins, we are talking about a prematch ritual at a sports event and how it should be responded to. If you are capable of rereading my posts with any degree of openmindedness, then you'll see that I like the haka, want it to continue and don't think it should be given any disrespectful response - simply that it is a challenge and not one that should go unanswered. A way of responding that is culturally based, positive and done in a manner reciprocal to the spirit of the haka is surely far better than the booing which is increasingly becoming its accompaniment.

 

[ranger]

It's a war dance sweetie - that is kinda designed to intimidate regardless of its present usage.

Haha is that right mate? i have to say its a surreal experience to have some clown 20000km away trying to patronisingly tell you the meaning of your own culture. He tutai nui tenei, no hea koe e hoa? ko Maori koe? Kaore, haere atu.

It is not your anthem sweetie, because you perform your anthem then you perform the haka as well. If you're happy for everyone else to have a second anthem when they play you, or want to do without the first one, then cool but otherwise, it cannot be treated as such in this context.

We are a bi-cultural country. An anthem is a european invention, the haka acknowledges the Maori roots of the country. (We have the New Zealand anthem translated into maori, but thats a bit of a joke really.) They both coincide together as we are a country based on two cultures. What do you suppose NZ do, get the Maori King and the Primeminister to rock it off before each All Black game to see which ethnic group gets acknowleged that week? **** off.

It may be by invitation in theory sweetie but not in practice. It's a nice tradition but nobody cares that much about it that they'd actively invite it, give away advantage, have their players cool down and increase the risk of injury, add in delays for the TV producers, etc. if it were not as a courtesy to the visitors. And it is a courtesy that comes with a degree of arm twisting.

It adds to the mystique of the All Blacks that foreign media are so fond of talking about. Do you remember what happened when the All Blacks do the haka in Wales? the crowd wasn't too happy about it. Its a selling point for the hosts. If they didn't want the Haka that much the need not invite the All Blacks to do it in every game contract they send out..
Also, all this about advantage? its only an advantage if you choose to be intimidated by 22 guys yelling for a bit. If you do then thats your own problem.

And once more, sweetie, your last argument is just a nonsense. Using that logic there would be no such thing as spectator sports - or if there were, they'd all be played in arenas which were as quiet as a library.

Crowds can encourage their team when they play, theres nothing wrong with that. They don't however, have to respond to every move by the opposition like its a personal attack on them. Thats ridiculous.

It's sad sweetie, that you feel the need to try and make this a cultural or racial issue when it is clearly no such thing. Regardless of it's origins, we are talking about a prematch ritual at a sports event and how it should be responded to. If you are capable of rereading my posts with any degree of openmindedness, then you'll see that I like the haka, want it to continue and don't think it should be given any disrespectful response - simply that it is a challenge and not one that should go unanswered. A way of responding that is culturally based, positive and done in a manner reciprocal to the spirit of the haka is surely far better than the booing which is increasingly becoming its accompaniment.

Could you stop calling me sweetie? he takatapui koe?
Its not so much a racial issue as it is an issue of complete ignorance, which i find quite annoying.
As for the actual response, i just can't see how you find an entire stadium of people yelling to be an equal response to 22 guys doing their thing. How can you feel pride in that? thats not an answer to a challenge, thats just being a dick. The chances of hearing the haka would be nill, which is a shame.

It also takes the ability to respond out of the hands of the players themselves, its quite selfcentered to think that the haka is directed at you way up in the grandstand, and its up to you personally to respond to the challenge for your team. Come off it.

 

[nickdnz]

It's a war dance sweetie - that is kinda designed to intimidate regardless of its present usage.

It is not your anthem sweetie, because you perform your anthem then you perform the haka as well. If you're happy for everyone else to have a second anthem when they play you, or want to do without the first one, then cool but otherwise, it cannot be treated as such in this context.

It may be by invitation in theory sweetie but not in practice. It's a nice tradition but nobody cares that much about it that they'd actively invite it, give away advantage, have their players cool down and increase the risk of injury, add in delays for the TV producers, etc. if it were not as a courtesy to the visitors. And it is a courtesy that comes with a degree of arm twisting.

And once more, sweetie, your last argument is just a nonsense. Using that logic there would be no such thing as spectator sports - or if there were, they'd all be played in arenas which were as quiet as a library.

It's sad sweetie, that you feel the need to try and make this a cultural or racial issue when it is clearly no such thing. Regardless of it's origins, we are talking about a prematch ritual at a sports event and how it should be responded to. If you are capable of rereading my posts with any degree of openmindedness, then you'll see that I like the haka, want it to continue and don't think it should be given any disrespectful response - simply that it is a challenge and not one that should go unanswered. A way of responding that is culturally based, positive and done in a manner reciprocal to the spirit of the haka is surely far better than the booing which is increasingly becoming its accompaniment.

You're a fool, and let me explain why.

1. Ka Mate is not a war dance, I've given you its meaning, and you have chosen to ignore them. I'd think you are fairly ignorent of most New Zealand traditions, and you are going off what little you think you know. Here is the direct translation -

I die! I die! I live! I live!
I die! I die! I live! I live!
This is the hairy man
Who fetched the Sun
And caused it to shine again
One upward step! Another upward step!
An upward step, another … the Sun shines!

Once again, not a war dance.

2. Wales have two national anthems, and South Africa wsing their national anthem with many different languages. It's their way of tributing their culture and heritage. The Haka is performed as it is a long standing part of Maori culture, and seeing as there has never been an official anthem of the Maori, it seems fitting that their culture is represented. There is a Maori translation of God Defend New Zealand, that no one seems to worry about, so I don't see why a Maori Haka is disputed. You''ll also note that no one seems to care about Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Cook Islands etc doing the Haka, but it's only the team that constantly wins that people get annoyed by.

3. It is by invitation. Any country which does not want the Haka has the right to do so. The Wales incident was Wales requesting in what order the Haka should be done, and therefore it was well within the right of the NZRU, to decline. Fact of the matter is, the Haka sells. More people attend All Black matches, then any other matches in the world, and a part of that is the atmosphere.

4. How is telling people that their representation of a large portion of their countries population, is not important or should be changed, anything other than a cultural or racial issue? Besides the fact that you can claim total ignorence?

Now stop being patronizing and calling people "sweetie" as it makes you sound like a crazy paedophile. Your suggestion of encourage the crowd to just sing over what is a cultural homage to Maori in New Zealand, is just about as disrespectful as you can get, and the dismissal of it as less important than a national anthem, is undermining a large portion of New Zealanders history.

 

[lynam1104]

Ireland have two anthems for rugby. Sop thats an unfair boost to us by you logic why aren't you complaining about that?

 

[hiz]

nickdnz & ranger - I'm quite happy to have a debate on any issue but when the manner in which it is done is as aggressive and chippy then there is little to be achieved and certainly no enjoyment in it. I think my meaning has been clear throughout and it has never been to cause offence (except with perhaps over use of a certain s word, which was frustration due to what I felt was deliberate, and continued, miscomprehension but even so - apologies). I don't like the tone of this argument so I'm not going to continue it with you. Enjoy your world cup when it comes.

lynam1104 - I wasn't complaining about them having two anthems or suggesting that they shouldn't perform the haka - I simply think that if they are going to perform the haka at away grounds, then the home team/fans should take/have some opportunity to respond (and that it should not be in a negative form like booing) as its being the last element prior to kick off does take away an element of home advantage and intensity of the crowd, either that or it should be performed at an earlier stage in the prematch routine. Its a different situation to Ireland as, firstly, you only use both anthems at home and, secondly, it remains within the normal order of anthems - a comparable would be if you were to sing Ahmrain na bhFiann first at an away match, then want to sing Ireland's Call after the home team's anthem - it inevitably changes the dynamic.

 

[Shaggy]

Totally agree with the crowd singing or making other noise through the Haka as disrespectful (the Haka is for the opposition players to respond to, not the crowd)

... as it's already been mentioned, Maori did not have a national anthem, and speaking as a Pakeha (a New Zealander of European descent), I view it in a Rugby sense as more important than the national anthem, so if I had to choose between the two (and I don't see why i should for the reasons outlined by Nickdnz and Ranger), I would choose the Haka ... this is my personal point of view, i have know idea how other New Zealanders would choose if they had to

Rugby history shows that the Haka being performed by New Zealand teams, predates the singing of National Anthems by any team, with the first instance of any national anthem being sung, was by the Welsh team in 1905 in response to the All Blacks Haka.

I don't condone any noise being made during the singing of national anthems, so i don't see that it's okay to drown out the Haka.

... My personal values tell me it's not okay to try to tell other cultures what the can and can't do when it comes to cultural issues (to do so is ARROGANCE in my opinion) ... customs/The Haka/Anthems should be treated with respect

 

[matjam]

I think that what this all shows is that the Haka is not arrogant as it is cultural and spiritually linked into New Zealand's history. It seems that some countries are arrogant to not respect that and what surprises me is that at stadiums now they have the guts to put a message on the big screen to be quiet during a conversion or penalty yet they won't do the same when the Haka is performed. I hope the UK takes the path of the Australians and rather than trying to ignore it by turning away or singing Waltzing Matilda over it they actually respect it now.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

You're a fool, and let me explain why.

1. Ka Mate is not a war dance, I've given you its meaning, and you have chosen to ignore them. I'd think you are fairly ignorent of most New Zealand traditions, and you are going off what little you think you know. Here is the direct translation -

I die! I die! I live! I live!
I die! I die! I live! I live!
This is the hairy man
Who fetched the Sun
And caused it to shine again
One upward step! Another upward step!
An upward step, another … the Sun shines!

Once again, not a war dance.

2. Wales have two national anthems, and South Africa wsing their national anthem with many different languages. It's their way of tributing their culture and heritage. The Haka is performed as it is a long standing part of Maori culture, and seeing as there has never been an official anthem of the Maori, it seems fitting that their culture is represented. There is a Maori translation of God Defend New Zealand, that no one seems to worry about, so I don't see why a Maori Haka is disputed. You''ll also note that no one seems to care about Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, Cook Islands etc doing the Haka, but it's only the team that constantly wins that people get annoyed by.

3. It is by invitation. Any country which does not want the Haka has the right to do so. The Wales incident was Wales requesting in what order the Haka should be done, and therefore it was well within the right of the NZRU, to decline. Fact of the matter is, the Haka sells. More people attend All Black matches, then any other matches in the world, and a part of that is the atmosphere.

4. How is telling people that their representation of a large portion of their countries population, is not important or should be changed, anything other than a cultural or racial issue? Besides the fact that you can claim total ignorence?

Now stop being patronizing and calling people "sweetie" as it makes you sound like a crazy paedophile. Your suggestion of encourage the crowd to just sing over what is a cultural homage to Maori in New Zealand, is just about as disrespectful as you can get, and the dismissal of it as less important than a national anthem, is undermining a large portion of New Zealanders history.

No Wales has one, thank you.

Also Wales had every right to request its order for that year, for me it was a poor show that New Zealand could not be a part of the 125th Celebration year for the WRU, it was for a one off cause, something that Wales were asking to repeating the same thing that occurred 125 years earlier, hardly a crime. The question must be asked why did NZ not want to allow Wales this request? People can say what they like about its tradition and what not, but surely if there was no psychological factor then NZ would have preformed it and allowed Wales to sing the National Anthem?

 

[matjam]

No Wales has one, thank you.

Actually they have God Save The Queen as they are part of the UK and they have Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau or The Land Of My Fathers which has 2 verses in different languages.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Actually they have God Save The Queen as they are part of the UK and they have Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau or The Land Of My Fathers which has 2 verses in different languages.

Wow hang on now, your down the wrong corridor.

Wales sings one National Anthem FACT! 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' is its name .... FACT ... its direct translation ***le is 'The Land Of My Fathers' ... FACT, which has been translated for the benefit of the people who do not or cannot understand Welsh .... It's only sang in Welsh and not English ... FACT! I cannot understand how having different languages the national anthem, even God Defend New Zealand has two different languages in it. South Africa's has 5 different languages in it, does that make it more than one National Anthem then ... of course it don't.

For me your quote has pretty much annoyed me and I just cannot believe what I have just seen written there.

The only time this changes is when a Welsh person represents Great Britain and they sing 'God Save The Queen' ... however not for you to get confused. Wales sings one Anthem ... in Welsh ... and when they compete as part of Great Britain they have to adopt 'God Save The Queen' ... as do Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

[matjam]

Fair enough. This is just what google says when searched.

 

[smb64]

In my opinion the Haka is an advantage however small it may be. The opposition gets intimidated and NZ get a moral/motivation boost. Especially when teams play home games the national anthem can be a great motivational influence, watching the Haka after it makes it wear off a bit. I really don't understand what the problem would be with NZ performing the Haka before the home team sings their national anthem.

 

[gingergenius]

Cymro's correct. National anthems in the UK are a bit of a muddle though, just to clear up:

England sing the UK anthem God Save the Queen, though for some other sports Land of Hope & Glory or Jerusalem are used (far better imo).

Scotland sing Flower of Scotland which was written in the folk revival in the 60s/70s, so has no true history to it.

Ireland sing 2 anthems, the first of which is the Soldiers Song (Amhran na bhFiann), but they all like to sing it in Irish because it makes them feel patriotic (even though most don't speak Irish), and the song was written in English. And the next one is to keep the Northeners happy, but from what I can tell this ****** some Southerners off, and also some Unionists...

And Wales have their cracker of an anthem, an original Welsh song that remains sung in Welsh.

 

[markshaw]

I think rugby will remain the great sport it is if we just leave things as they are. I love the way you guys up north can sing like crazy in the stadium..thats intimidating as hell!! And when the crowd goes silent during a kick. Every country brings something to the table thats special to international rugby.

 

[peter alien]

I don't think Haka performance has anything to do with arrogance... i think it is a mix of show and tradition... nothing more than that.

Since my 5 or 6 years old i like very much rugby and i always live in a country that only a decade ago or so invested really hard in this sport... and the results have been great... pity they can´t go to New Zealand for World Cup 2011.
Maybe in 2015 in England, i hope

About arrogance, there are other sports that you can see more arrogant acts than rugby, football or soccer (as the americans call it) for example. I'm portuguese and i don't like the Cristiano Ronaldo's image... that kind of image is too much arrogant and stupid... and sometimes even anti-sport like it happend when we lost in World Cup in South Africa against Spain!

 

[Shaggy]

For anyone wanting to gain a bit more knowledge and understanding of the Haka from a rugby point of view, I found this article on the New Zealand Rugby Museum site a good read

http://www.rugbymuseum.co.nz/asp/container_pages/normal_menu/rmArticle.asp?IDID=137

 

[Easdon]

The trouble with discussing the haka is that because it is so intrinsically connected to Maori culture, any attack on it is taken as an attack on the entire culture which is why this slightly nippy debate has played out.

The haka is obviously not an arrogant display, it is an incredbly impressive show and one that I personally love to watch. As a Scot, I don't see it as unfair in any way - yes it gets the ABs fired up at a crucial moment before kick off but the opposition also get ready for the challenge by seeing it. Just look on Youtube at some of the famous instances where the two sets of players are standing toe to toe, neither refusing to back down first - obviously the law has changed where there has to be 20 yards between both teams but the players are still on that pitch, lined up together facing up to a collosal challenge. I was once on tour and we played against a team from NZ who did a haka before the game and there are very few games that I've been more pumped for than I was after seeing the display.

Although it has been dropped (thankfully) the topic of it taking too much out of the All Blacks before a game is ridiculous. Granted, it does obviously take some amount of energy to perform well (the amount is really not important) but if they were too tired after it, I highly doubt that they would then go ahead and play so well. The only disrespectful thing I can see is to suggest that the haka is what gives the All Blacks the edge against other teams - they are deservedly the best team in the world because they play the best rugby in the world. Teams like Tonga/Samoa/Fiji who also perform traditional dances aren't the top teams in the world which services my point - the haka isn't everything. It's like suggesting Scotland have an unfair advantage at Murrayfield with a pipe band playing - all it is is a display of culture and I for one am proud to be a part of a sport which can boast such diversity.

 

[Milla]

The Haka is a courage-lifting challenge, which psychs the ABs (and often their opponents) up. It's not a magic elixir that gives them an advantage. It probably has a similar effect to the changing room pep talks coaches give, especially when the coach is scary.

An ex-All Black I knew once told me that the most daunting thing he faced in his career (including various Maori challenges) was the Welsh crowds singing at National Stadium, Cardiff. He said it was awe-inspiring and terrifying. He loved it and wished it had been in support of the ABs. I have a feeling that the Welsh choral tradition trumps our Maori battle challenges for influencing the outcomes of matches