[Natwest 6 Nations] Round 3 : Scotland Vs England 24/02/2018 16:45

[TRF_Olyy]

I care about cheating in the games themselves, i don't care about a lucky patch of mud and who gets to stand there

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I heard this story direct from a player who was there on the day. The English team were sent out and originally told to stand that side. Then When the little fella who made said mistake asked Johnson to move to the other side he said F off. Doubt Johnson or any of the team gave any thought to which side they were on, they simply weren't willing to move once positioned. Arguably the whole thing could have been mind games on the part of the Irish, and it simply backfired. Let's make the English dance to our tune and get some early psychological advantage. I guess we'll never really know. Didn't go well for Ireland in any event.

I'm pretty sure it was Mike Tyson who said that he won every fight before he ever threw a punch. Mind games are a huge part of top level sport and Jones is a master. He takes all the pressure of his players and piles it onto the other teams and often gets right under the skin of the other teams coaches, which is bound to impact on the team.

And who doesn't love some top bants?

I'll leave Johnson, your anecdote sounds dubious at best.

Think Bruce hits the nail on the head up there. Jones has the luxury of spewing **** with England, he does it because he knows his side are better than those he's playing, he didn't with Japan. With every side exposed to the best sports psychologists around the effect is negligible and Steve's to tickle Jones' ego and nothing else, Gatland does the same thing and often gets derided when he looks a *** afterwards, Jones was pretty quiet prior to the game in Dublin last year so it hasn't helped him yet.

People can look and claim that those comments were genius or that he got in Patchell's head but in all likelihood if Scotland get beat tomorrow it's because England are a better team, we all know that, and Patchell played badly because he's a 10 who's yet to prove himself to be European standard, nevermind being good enough to beat the world's number two side!

 

[Groundhog]

I care about cheating in the games themselves, i don't care about a lucky patch of mud and who gets to stand there

A lucky piece of mud? Well Johnson is a miserable piece of dirt and you guys seem very precious about him
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(I jest, he'll probably work here soon given our recent fondness of former English coaches)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He's east Midlands so no arguments from me

 

[spartan32]

I like Jones's bants. In the end we all know it's down to what happens on the pitch on the day, but where's the harm in some pantomime in the build up, gives us something to rant about. And if it even has a few % impact on the other team then that's got to be a good thing for us. Because at the highest level the difference can be just a few percent. Every little helps.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yup, I think he does it to take media pressure/attention off of the team.
Also think that's why he's so steadfast on Hartley, despite George being better.
Couple of scapegoats to take the media fire while everyone else can get on with their jobs

 

[Maverick1987]

Yup, I think he does it to take media pressure/attention off of the team.
Also think that's why he's so steadfast on Hartley, despite George being better.
Couple of scapegoats to take the media fire while everyone else can get on with their jobs

Oh the conspiracy ! I love it ! Haha

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Irish accusing the English of cheating.
Some things never change.
It's like when the Munster fans got upset because Neil Back merely showed Stringer how to put the ball in a scrum.


Personally i love Eddie the difference between him and Lancaster is just great, Lancaster was always the media darling but he never showed any fight compared to Eddie who just uses the media for his own gain and is never shy to tell a jounro to STFU.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Irish accusing the English of cheating.
Some things never change.
It's like when the Munster fans got upset because Neil Back merely showed Stringer how to put the ball in a scrum.


Personally i love Eddie the difference between him and Lancaster is just great, Lancaster was always the media darling but he never showed any fight compared to Eddie who just uses the media for his own gain and is never shy to tell a jounro to STFU.

I think Stu has definitely learnt his lesson from that and last year, he doesn't talk much about other teams but he's not humble with the press anymore often saying we simply shouldn't lose games and implying that the double is ours to lose. Subject to his relationship with Faz I look forward to him taking over from Schmidt., It'd mean that the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th wins of our current streak over you would hurt less considering the English coaching staff, win win!

 

[Lé Ddanno]

The Irish:
Traditions matter! Respect heads of state!

Also the Irish:

HANDS OUT OF YOUR POCKETS YOU FILTHY CUR

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

MJ stands on the wrong side due to the direction of one of the Irish staff (questioned but it wouldn't be the first time a team buggered about with England before kickoff). When England refused to move, Ireland could have just stood on the right and then have the president proceed as normal or go right to left to still greet visitors first. It was the Irish who decided to stand on the grass because of their determination to be on that side and the Irish who chose to make her walk on the grass.

TBH the whole thing smells just like the Wales tunnel nonsense, a pre-planned attempt to mess a team about before the game that backfired spectacularly and then crying because England wouldn't allow themselves to be pushed around by people who want to play stupid games.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

MJ stands on the wrong side due to the direction of one of the Irish staff (questioned but it wouldn't be the first time a team buggered about with England before kickoff). When England refused to move, Ireland could have just stood on the right and then have the president proceed as normal or go right to left to still greet visitors first. It was the Irish who decided to stand on the grass because of their determination to be on that side and the Irish who chose to make her walk on the grass.

TBH the whole thing smells just like the Wales tunnel nonsense, a pre-planned attempt to mess a team about before the game that backfired spectacularly and then crying because England wouldn't allow themselves to be pushed around by people who want to play stupid games.

There is absolutely no proof he was directed by Irish staff, that's what Woodward said (kind of, he just said they were told to leave the dressing room). It's far more likely Johnson was messing the Irish about considering every international sport match in Ireland has the away side on the left. It's a sporting tradition and not complying with it is like a side not facing the haka or entering the pitch after the minutes silence for armistice. This was definitely Johnson being a dick.


It worked, fair play to him, but this isn't one to pin on us. BOD should have been ready to face up to Johnson and tell him where to go.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

There is absolutely no proof he was directed by Irish staff, that's what Woodward said (kind of, he just said they were told to leave the dressing room). It's far more likely Johnson was messing the Irish about considering every international sport match in Ireland has the away side on the left. It's a sporting tradition and not complying with it is like a side not facing the haka or entering the pitch after the minutes silence for armistice. This was definitely Johnson being a dick.


It worked, fair play to him, but this isn't one to pin on us. BOD should have been ready to face up to Johnson and tell him where to go.

There is also no proof he did it just to wind the Irish up. It's purely he said-she said in such scenario. As I said, it's not the first time someone has tried to pull a stupid stunt pre-game to put us off. Hell it could have been a genuine error too but the only decision we KNOW was made with full knowledge of what was happening was for the Irish to then line up off the red carpet.

However England were on course for a grand slam in a world cup year and were just in the mentality of not allowing anyone to push them around. You sya why couldn't Johnson have moved, I say why couldn't the Irish have had the president walk the other way or greet the home team first? We stood on that side but you were the ones who chose to have your president walk on the mud to satisfy your desire to always stand on the same side rather than simply shrug it off and allow your president to continue to walk on the carpet with a slight change in the program. Once Johnson decided not to move, the Irish should have lined up next to the carpet. You have nobody to blame but yourselves for your decision to have her walk on the pitch.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

There is also no proof he did it just to wind the Irish up. It's purely he said-she said in such scenario. As I said, it's not the first time someone has tried to pull a stupid stunt pre-game to put us off. Hell it could have been a genuine error too but the only decision we KNOW was made with full knowledge of what was happening was for the Irish to then line up off the red carpet.

However England were on course for a grand slam in a world cup year and were just in the mentality of not allowing anyone to push them around. You sya why couldn't Johnson have moved, I say why couldn't the Irish have had the president walk the other way or greet the home team first? We stood on that side but you were the ones who chose to have your president walk on the mud to satisfy your desire to always stand on the same side rather than simply shrug it off and allow your president to continue to walk on the carpet with a slight change in the program. Once Johnson decided not to move, the Irish should have lined up next to the carpet. You have nobody to blame but yourselves for your decision to have her walk on the pitch.

It is an Irish sporting tradition to have the president walk that way and greet the away side first, that's why it couldn't happen the other way, it's belligerent to think otherwise. I agree that we shouldn't have made her walk on the pitch, BOD should have taken his team out and made England move one way or another, that's what Johnson would have done in reverse. Johnson knew he was disrespecting our president from at least the time he was told to move though, that's undeniable. He doesn't care, when asked after the game he said "no disrespect to the president but no one cares about pre game processions" (paraphrasing) and he won, he sleeps soundly at night. Most Irish think he's a dick because of it and have a right to, anyone who gave it a moments thought would also realise our captain should have done better.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It is an Irish sporting tradition to have the president walk that way and greet the away side first, that's why it couldn't happen the other way, it's belligerent to think otherwise. I agree that we shouldn't have made her walk on the pitch, BOD should have taken his team out and made England move one way or another, that's what Johnson would have done in reverse. Johnson knew he was disrespecting our president from at least the time he was told to move though, that's undeniable. He doesn't care, when asked after the game he said "no disrespect to the president but no one cares about pre game processions" (paraphrasing) and he won, he sleeps soundly at night. Most Irish think he's a dick because of it and have a right to, anyone who gave it a moments thought would also realise our captain should have done better.

No, it's not belligerent. You think on the eve of a grand slam game before the world cup the English squad are going to pay any attention to Irish sporting traditions!? It's not exactly a priority in the mind is it? What would have been going through his mind is giving no quarter and not taking any ****. If it was your procedure then you should have made damn sure you had people ready to tell England which side to line up on. As it is, we don't know if Johnson did it as a wind up or the Irish did it as a wind up or it was an honest mistake, we can argue that till the cows come home and get nowhere. The only thing we DO know is the Irish decided to then line up on the grass to make a point. We don't know if England did what they did to make a point but we KNOW categorically that the Irish did what they did in full knowledge of the situation, in full knowledge it wasn't correct and in full knowledge that they could resolve it simply. The only aspect of the entire thing we know for a fact was a conscious choice and not a mistake was the Irish lining up on the grass and having the president walk on the grass.

So much as we may argue about MJ, we have no evidence either way, the only evidence we have of conscious choice is how the Irish reacted. Now tell me, what mattered more to the Irish, their president not getting dirty shoes or being able to stand on the correct side? To me it looks like they didn't give a damn whatsoever about the president and it was all about being seen to stand on their "traditional" side.

Again see the Wales tunnel fiasco. We were told it was "traditional" for the visitors to go out first in Cardiff, into a cold stadium with the light turns off, a booing crowd and the Welsh hiding in their changing rooms. You can't use tradition as an impenetrable shield to protect you from the possibility that your side might have been the ones playing stupid games or that the whole thing was a simple mistake. Can you say hand over heart that the Irish would never have used mind games to try to unsettle England when they were going for a grand slam in a world cup year where they were the #1 ranked team in the world? Can you seriously believe that there is no possibility of Irish guilt in this?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No, it's not belligerent. You think on the eve of a grand slam game before the world cup the English squad are going to pay any attention to Irish sporting traditions!? It's not exactly a priority in the mind is it? What would have been going through his mind is giving no quarter and not taking any ****. If it was your procedure then you should have made damn sure you had people ready to tell England which side to line up on. As it is, we don't know if Johnson did it as a wind up or the Irish did it as a wind up or it was an honest mistake, we can argue that till the cows come home and get nowhere. The only thing we DO know is the Irish decided to then line up on the grass to make a point. We don't know if England did what they did to make a point but we KNOW categorically that the Irish did what they did in full knowledge of the situation, in full knowledge it wasn't correct and in full knowledge that they could resolve it simply. The only aspect of the entire thing we know for a fact was a conscious choice and not a mistake was the Irish lining up on the grass and having the president walk on the grass.

So much as we may argue about MJ, we have no evidence either way, the only evidence we have of conscious choice is how the Irish reacted. Now tell me, what mattered more to the Irish, their president not getting dirty shoes or being able to stand on the correct side? To me it looks like they didn't give a damn whatsoever about the president and it was all about being seen to stand on their "traditional" side.

Again see the Wales tunnel fiasco. We were told it was "traditional" for the visitors to go out first in Cardiff, into a cold stadium with the light turns off, a booing crowd and the Welsh hiding in their changing rooms. You can't use tradition as an impenetrable shield to protect you from the possibility that your side might have been the ones playing stupid games or that the whole thing was a simple mistake. Can you say hand over heart that the Irish would never have used mind games to try to unsettle England when they were going for a grand slam in a world cup year where they were the #1 ranked team in the world? Can you seriously believe that there is no possibility of Irish guilt in this?

He was told to move and he didn't, that's proof enough that from that point on at the very least he knew what he was doing was wrong. He was also the captain in 01 and played in 99, 97 and 95 too, there's a strong chance he knew the deal.

How condescending can you be? What if last November Argentina had refused to take the pitch for the minutes silence for Armistice or warmed up while it was on? It's not a tradition in Argentina, they're definitely not thinking about it on the eve of a test match, it doesn't help their prep in any way and its only an English/British tradition to them but I'm pretty sure you'd feel pretty disrespected if they did!

I've already said BOD didn't react well, certain teammates said they should have stood in front of England and BOD, as a much younger man, said they'd be liable to start a brawl and that wasn't an option, that should have been what they did if it meant our president didn't have to walk on the grass. I'm well aware we ****** up, but Johnson was a belligerent asshole.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

He was told to move and he didn't, that's proof enough that from that point on at the very least he knew what he was doing was wrong. He was also the captain in 01 and played in 99, 97 and 95 too, there's a strong chance he knew the deal.

How condescending can you be? What if last November Argentina had refused to take the pitch for the minutes silence for Armistice or warmed up while it was on? It's not a tradition in Argentina, they're definitely not thinking about it on the eve of a test match, it doesn't help their prep in any way and its only an English/British tradition to them but I'm pretty sure you'd feel pretty disrespected if they did!

I've already said BOD didn't react well, certain teammates said they should have stood in front of England and BOD, as a much younger man, said they'd be liable to start a brawl and that wasn't an option, that should have been what they did if it meant our president didn't have to walk on the grass. I'm well aware we ****** up, but Johnson was a belligerent asshole.

An moment of silence for WW1 and a tradition by Irish rugby sports are in totally different leagues, how can you even think that comparing the 2 is in any way an equal comparison? Seriously? I mean please, justify your reasoning for this because frankly it's ridiculous. You can't just slap 1 cultural norm against another and call them equal. A moments silence to remember the war and millions dead goes FAR deeper than standing on the left! I'm still trying to work out how the hell you could think to equate the 2. As it is Argentina already got condemnation for not observing the silence properly in football, and for unfurling a Falklands banner.

You honestly think standing in front of England would have been a better option? That would have been even worse. Again we don't know why Johnson stood there but we DO know the Irish motives. So you're saying you think the veterans would have supported an even more petty response? Tell me, just how ingrained and important is it for Irish sports to stand on that side? I'm not talking about it's important because it is bullshit, I mean is there any actual significant reason for standing there? If it boils down to "it's tradition because it's tradition because it's what we have decided we will always do" then you would do well to read a Terry Pratchett book and see his opinion on such tradition. England wilfully or accidentally created the situation but Ireland knowing exacerbated it. you can't say with any certainty that our decision to stand there was done with malice or as a wind up but I can say with absolute certainty that the motive for Ireland to stand on the grass was done out of pettiness, pig headedness and a determination for thing to be done "your way" rather than the actual excuse of not getting mud on the presidents shoes.

To use an analogy, if someone bumps you, do you think you are innocent or in any way hold a moral high ground if you then turn around and wallop them in the face?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

An moment of silence for WW1 and a tradition by Irish rugby sports are in totally different leagues, how can you even think that comparing the 2 is in any way an equal comparison? Seriously? I mean please, justify your reasoning for this because frankly it's ridiculous. You can't just slap 1 cultural norm against another and call them equal. A moments silence to remember the war and millions dead goes FAR deeper than standing on the left! I'm still trying to work out how the hell you could think to equate the 2. As it is Argentina already got condemnation for not observing the silence properly in football, and for unfurling a Falklands banner.

You honestly think standing in front of England would have been a better option? That would have been even worse. Again we don't know why Johnson stood there but we DO know the Irish motives. So you're saying you think the veterans would have supported an even more petty response? Tell me, just how ingrained and important is it for Irish sports to stand on that side? I'm not talking about it's important because it is bullshit, I mean is there any actual significant reason for standing there? If it boils down to "it's tradition because it's tradition because it's what we have decided we will always do" then you would do well to read a Terry Pratchett book and see his opinion on such tradition. England wilfully or accidentally created the situation but Ireland knowing exacerbated it. you can't say with any certainty that our decision to stand there was done with malice or as a wind up but I can say with absolute certainty that the motive for Ireland to stand on the grass was done out of pettiness, pig headedness and a determination for thing to be done "your way" rather than the actual excuse of not getting mud on the presidents shoes.

Your traditions are more important than ours to the point that countries you've had a conflict with should follow... Gotcha, stay away from diplomacy!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Your traditions are more important than ours to the point that countries you've had a conflict with should follow... Gotcha, stay away from diplomacy!

Seriously do you look at what you are typing? You are comparing remembrance for MILLIONS that died in one of the most horrific wars in history to standing on the ******* left! come on answer me, how the **** are the 2 even remotely comparable? Can you even tell me this great important reason for standing on the left?! Do you even know the origin or reason for your bloody tradition because any tradition that is done without any knowledge of why other than it is what you always do is not worth keeping.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Seriously do you look at what you are typing? You are comparing remembrance for MILLIONS that died in one of the most horrific wars in history to standing on the ******* left! come on answer me, how the **** are the 2 even remotely comparable?

They're long standing traditions in the host country, visitors should respect them.