[Natwest 6 Nations] Round 3 : Scotland Vs England 24/02/2018 16:45

[Ragey Erasmus]

Whoops, unfortunate: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/bbc-offer-explanation-embarrassing-nigel-14343474

Ha that's hilarious

 

[Mumbles119]

This is actually true. Jones does spill some bile at times. And its interesting to see that this bile has become more potent with the chips pointing in a downward direction. Maybe now his true colours will become apparent to all, not just the few. Sure Gatland is no angel, but the fact that he is more softly spoken and gets his point across with a less is more vibe, speaks volumes.

Have I missed something Jones has said? If by 'chips pointing downward' you mean the loss to Scotland? Then Jones has only said things along the line of Scotland were better, England lacked intensity, as the coach I will take the blame. How is that bile?

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Don't forget, Jones is apparently a shoe-in for the Lions job in 2021....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, get Howley in again instead.

 

[General Melchett]

Have I missed something Jones has said? If by 'chips pointing downward' you mean the loss to Scotland? Then Jones has only said things along the line of Scotland were better, England lacked intensity, as the coach I will take the blame. How is that bile?

I assume the bile reference was about the Patchell comments. Jones was respectful to the Scots both pre and post match. I think his praise of Russell were genuine and not an attempt to play mind games. If he can mastermind wins against France and Ireland then he'll be the best thing since sliced bread again.

Personally I much prefer Jones over Gatland who strikes me as being more spiteful and bitter. Schmidt and Townsend are class acts who conduct themselves really well.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Have I missed something Jones has said? If by 'chips pointing downward' you mean the loss to Scotland? Then Jones has only said things along the line of Scotland were better, England lacked intensity, as the coach I will take the blame. How is that bile?

By 'chips pointing down' I meant that England haven't had a great 6 Nations so far. Italy tested them at times in the first game. Wales although beaten did that as well and Scotland blew them away. And with Jones, its not so much what he says but the way he says it. And yes, the deliberate targeting of Patchell with his pre-match comments weren't good, to be honest. And as an international coach, trained in media interviews etc he would have KNOWN what he was saying and the way he was saying it. So his obnoxiousness isn't accidental, or a character flaw, its deliberate. I'm sure there are plenty here on the forum who could give examples of the EJ bile over the years.

Interesting to note that there was a breakdown of Scotland's dominance over England last weekend and part of it went back to the exit of England from the 2015 RWC when Jones was coaching Japan. He identified the problem at the breakdown he (Jones) commented at the time "England haven't got that guy who has a real instinct for the ball. If you haven't got a guy who is really skilled at contesting the ball in that area, then you are under pressure all the time, you're trying to get the ball back and you're giving away penalties. Then the ref gets on you and it just starts a cycle." And yet after the Scotland defeat he deflected attention from the breakdown mess and said "It is a team responsibility, its not just the back row responsibility." I'm not sure what this highlights entirely. Maybe that some of what EJ says at any given time can be treated with a pinch of salt.

You may well be right in Jones being the best thing since sliced bread if he masterminds wins against France and Ireland. I think though, that comparison would be a bit of an overstatement. We'll see.

 

[Mumbles119]

By 'chips pointing down' I meant that England haven't had a great 6 Nations so far. Italy tested them at times in the first game. Wales although beaten did that as well and Scotland blew them away. And with Jones, its not so much what he says but the way he says it. And yes, the deliberate targeting of Patchell with his pre-match comments weren't good, to be honest. And as an international coach, trained in media interviews etc he would have KNOWN what he was saying and the way he was saying it. So his obnoxiousness isn't accidental, or a character flaw, its deliberate. I'm sure there are plenty here on the forum who could give examples of the EJ bile over the years.

Interesting to note that there was a breakdown of Scotland's dominance over England last weekend and part of it went back to the exit of England from the 2015 RWC when Jones was coaching Japan. He identified the problem at the breakdown he (Jones) commented at the time "England haven't got that guy who has a real instinct for the ball. If you haven't got a guy who is really skilled at contesting the ball in that area, then you are under pressure all the time, you're trying to get the ball back and you're giving away penalties. Then the ref gets on you and it just starts a cycle." And yet after the Scotland defeat he deflected attention from the breakdown mess and said "It is a team responsibility, its not just the back row responsibility." I'm not sure what this highlights entirely. Maybe that some of what EJ says at any given time can be treated with a pinch of salt.

You may well be right in Jones being the best thing since sliced bread if he masterminds wins against France and Ireland. I think though, that comparison would be a bit of an overstatement. We'll see.

Thanks 5th for your reply.
I agree it hasn't been a good 6N so far for England and the just scraping through thing has been in evidence for longer than just this 6N too.
I also agree the personal targeting of individuals in the media by opposition coaches is not appropriate or palatable in my personal opinion.
I don't agree that Eddie makes it worse deliberately by the way he talks and chooses his words. That is definitely your own opinion of how you feel about Eddie. You mention Gatland doing this too (but he does it in a softer way), but it just seems to be the thing that every coach now and then does nowadays.
Yes, Eddie has had many changeable and constrasting statements over his England tenure. It does make him a bit unpredictable and hopefully works well as a smokescreen to protect the players from the media. But this particular statement of the need for breakdown skilled players and then not selecting them as you quoted, is so frustrating from a supporter view. Yes, Eddie solved the problem by dominating ball protection as per the Australia tour, but then where was the intensity and power to continue that tactic in the Scotland game? Maybe they were tired from over training, but in reality only Eddie know what he planned, nobabdy else does!
I have not said that Eddie is the best thing since sliced bread. I do think he has the ability to develop this England team to success more than most coaches who were available, and he does seem to suit the set up well too.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Thanks 5th for your reply.
I agree it hasn't been a good 6N so far for England and the just scraping through thing has been in evidence for longer than just this 6N too.
I also agree the personal targeting of individuals in the media by opposition coaches is not appropriate or palatable in my personal opinion.
I don't agree that Eddie makes it worse deliberately by the way he talks and chooses his words. That is definitely your own opinion of how you feel about Eddie. You mention Gatland doing this too (but he does it in a softer way), but it just seems to be the thing that every coach now and then does nowadays.
Yes, Eddie has had many changeable and contrasting statements over his England tenure. It does make him a bit unpredictable and hopefully works well as a smokescreen to protect the players from the media. But this particular statement of the need for breakdown skilled players and then not selecting them as you quoted, is so frustrating from a supporter view. Yes, Eddie solved the problem by dominating ball protection as per the Australia tour, but then where was the intensity and power to continue that tactic in the Scotland game? Maybe they were tired from over training, but in reality only Eddie know what he planned, nobabdy else does!
I have not said that Eddie is the best thing since sliced bread. I do think he has the ability to develop this England team to success more than most coaches who were available, and he does seem to suit the set up well too.

Hey yeah I should have multi-quoted really - that 'best thing since sliced bread' was from another post on this thread sorry!

Its true, for some reason I dislike EJ intensely, as soon as he opens his mouth. HOWEVER, I do stand by my 'deliberate' accusation - handling the media, interviews etc is, these days, pretty much a micro-science. Words are chosen carefully and considerately, deliberately. And with EJ since isn't he, under his own admission on some sort of 'good behaviour order'? And the fact that he is, adds fuel to the fire actually. That Patchell thing was nasty, and it was premeditated (as in not a slip of the tongue) and i would say that if I loved the guy. I've already said Gatland is no angel - he likes to stir it up. I cant remember him targeting an inexperienced opposition player pre-match though. Someone might correct me on this, not sure!

Anyway - second half of this 6 Nations should be uhmmmmm.... interesting!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm not really too bothered what comes out of Eddie's mouth. I am quite bothered about what goes on between his ears though.

Stubbornness is a trait I admire, but I really don't understand his thinking around the front row, back row and back up SH in particular. The latter two have directly bitten us badly this championship, while the lack of contribution from two of the front row are long standing issues.

I can take losses if they're growing pains of a clear plan or just a bad day at the office. But if we lose another 6N game with the same old, Eddie might just find out what happens once the English press have built someone up.

 

[The5thOfficial]

I'm not really too bothered what comes out of Eddie's mouth. I am quite bothered about what goes on between his ears though.

Stubbornness is a trait I admire, but I really don't understand his thinking around the front row, back row and back up SH in particular. The latter two have directly bitten us badly this championship, while the lack of contribution from two of the front row are long standing issues.

I can take losses if they're growing pains of a clear plan or just a bad day at the office. But if we lose another 6N game with the same old, Eddie might just find out what happens once the English press have built someone up.

Ha ha fair enough!
And yep, they build you up and they can bring you right back down again, with a thump!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What did EJ say about patchell?
I can't remember reading anything

Tbf if he has a low opinion of him it's understandable as he was the 10 in the loss in Japan and was crap against England the other week, so every game EJ has coached against him he's been muck

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What did EJ say about patchell?
I can't remember reading anything

Tbf if he has a low opinion of him it's understandable as he was the 10 in the loss in Japan and was crap against England the other week, so every game EJ has coached against him he's been muck

"Every time Rhys Patchell gets the ball he's going to see Jonathan Joseph's head in his way," said Jones, having confirmed a starting XV with Joseph at outside centre in place of Ben Te'o.

"JJ's a good-looking bloke but you don't want that as you go to pass the ball. He's either going to have to go over him or kick through. And then they give us the ball back. He's a young guy, he's inexperienced and is their third-choice 10. He will have to find guys around him to help because he'll be under some heat. I'd imagine that when Alun Wyn Jones and the guys go down for breakfast on Saturday morning, they'll be looking at him thinking: can this kid handle the pressure today? He's got to get the ball wide and that's going to be a big job. It will be different to playing against Scotland. It's a big ask … one hell of an experience for the kid. I hope he has the bottle on Saturday."

Not like he called him a smelly ginger or something.

If Patchell couldn't handle that then he didn't have the bottle yet.
.

 

[The5thOfficial]

What did EJ say about patchell?
I can't remember reading anything

Tbf if he has a low opinion of him it's understandable as he was the 10 in the loss in Japan and was crap against England the other week, so every game EJ has coached against him he's been muck

It was more about how he pretty much slagged Patchell off before the game and suggested he wouldn't be able to hack it. Undermining an inexperienced player like that before a match, is hardly befitting a national coach - its almost like a playground bullying thing really only worse. I'm not saying it worked and he got into Patchell's head and that's why he had a bad game or nothing. Just EJ nuff said.

 

[The5thOfficial]

"Every time Rhys Patchell gets the ball he's going to see Jonathan Joseph's head in his way," said Jones, having confirmed a starting XV with Joseph at outside centre in place of Ben Te'o.

"JJ's a good-looking bloke but you don't want that as you go to pass the ball. He's either going to have to go over him or kick through. And then they give us the ball back. He's a young guy, he's inexperienced and is their third-choice 10. He will have to find guys around him to help because he'll be under some heat. I'd imagine that when Alun Wyn Jones and the guys go down for breakfast on Saturday morning, they'll be looking at him thinking: can this kid handle the pressure today? He's got to get the ball wide and that's going to be a big job. It will be different to playing against Scotland. It's a big ask … one hell of an experience for the kid. I hope he has the bottle on Saturday."

Not like he called him a smelly ginger or something.

If Patchell couldn't handle that then he didn't have the bottle yet.
.

Hmm so if this kind of pre-match talk is acceptable then, why don't more coaches adopt the tactic?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So he was right?

Talk about an overreaction, I thought he was gonna be in the press calling his mum a slag or something

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It was more about how he pretty much slagged Patchell off before the game and suggested he wouldn't be able to hack it. Undermining an inexperienced player like that before a match, is hardly befitting a national coach - its almost like a playground bullying thing really only worse. I'm not saying it worked and he got into Patchell's head and that's why he had a bad game or nothing. Just EJ nuff said.

His job is to win with England not be nice to the opposition 10 because he is young and inexperienced.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Hmm so if this kind of pre-match talk is acceptable then, why don't more coaches adopt the tactic?

Probably because it doesn't actually make that much of a difference.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Hmm so if this kind of pre-match talk is acceptable then, why don't more coaches adopt the tactic?

Cause most coaches can't pull it off.

Schmidt won't do it because it's not his personality, look at Eddies size, for him to have made it in rugby he has to have that mentality.

and he doesn't just target inexperienced players he said worse to Sexton who is one of the best 10's in the world.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's fine for coaches to publicly call the opposition team/players cheats, but to suggest the inexperienced flaky 10 might struggle with the pressure of an away game at Twickenham is TOO FAR

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It's fine for coaches to publicly call the opposition team/players cheats, but to suggest the inexperienced flaky 10 might struggle with the pressure of an away game at Twickenham is TOO FAR

Patchell is 24 FFS 25 in a couple months, he's the same age as Ford.