Nation Eligibilty Catch-All Thread

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Rumours circulating that Gio Compario isn't Italian Q.

 

[Young Scud]

I have some sympathy with the numbers for Wales/Ireland/Scotland as they have more of a disapora than the English do - however Scotland take the **** with how much they target foreign players (both with tenuous Granny-links and full blooded like their Saffa contingent)

As far as I'm aware no one else does this, or at least not as aggressively (Wales do to an extent, and Ireland have their Exiles sides)

What's tenuous about a granny link? Either you have the requisite parentage or you don't.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

For me it's a 'tenuous' granny as in:

If the union of the nation you were born, raised and trained in wanted to select you for your national side, would you say no because you were desperately holding out on playing for a nation whose only connection to you was that your granny was born there but left there when she was a child?

99% of the time that's unlikely to be a true first choice to side with your granny's nation of birth against the nation of your own birth. Instead the decision is either motivated by money or by an understanding you aren't good enough for your first choice. So it's a 'tenuous' devotion to the jersey when compared to those selected for to play for the nation of their birth.

A tenuous grandad on the other hand is something completely different, usually involving drunken liaisons and/or seductive milkmen.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm an advocate of the granny rule because I think it'd be ******* mental if rugby had stricter requirements to qualify to play for a country than some of its participants do for citizenship. Getting rid of it could possibly cause weird legal issues and inconsistent requirements from country to country if challenged also.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I'm an advocate of the granny rule because I think it'd be ******* mental if rugby had stricter requirements to qualify to play for a country than some of its participants do for citizenship. Getting rid of it could possibly cause weird legal issues and inconsistent requirements from country to country if challenged also.

it already does.

edit: world rugby is solely jus soli. Nations with jus sanguinis citizenship laws would be likely to have citizens not eligible to play for the national team.

For instance in the United States you get to keep your inherited citizenship if you reside in the United States for a period of time if you are born outside the United States. There are American citizens who would not be eligible to play for the United States because the granny rule only cares about the birth of your parent or grandparent; not where they lived, where they had citizenship, or anything that actually had to deal with their life.

 

[Reiser99]

I'm an advocate of the granny rule because I think it'd be ******* mental if rugby had stricter requirements to qualify to play for a country than some of its participants do for citizenship. Getting rid of it could possibly cause weird legal issues and inconsistent requirements from country to country if challenged also.

I'm fine with the current rules, where I object is Wales and Scotland abusing the system to gain players cheaply rather than investing in the youth of their own country. Wales are letting English clubs train Welsh talent then forcing them to move to the regions and Scotland are just leading a race to the bottom capping young players. I haven't changed my mind, I think it should be, if you play internationally at u20s level then you can't be capped by another country for 3-5 years.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

it already does.

edit: world rugby is solely jus soli. Nations with jus sanguinis citizenship laws would be likely to have citizens not eligible to play for the national team.

For instance in the United States you get to keep your inherited citizenship if you reside in the United States for a period of time if you are born outside the United States. There are American citizens who would not be eligible to play for the United States because the granny rule only cares about the birth of your parent or grandparent; not where they lived, where they had citizenship, or anything that actually had to deal with their life.

Could you provide an example? I thought the US was incredibly difficult to gain citizenship to. I can't fathom how you have citizens who weren't born in the US, haven't lived there for 5 consecutive years and don't have direct relatives born there for 2 generations.

The exceptions I can think of is bought citizenship but I'd have to do more research as to the actual status you have as a national of that country. Did a bit of work about a year ago on an application but changed department before it really got off the ground.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I can't give you a person. But for example. Your great grandparents (both born in USA) have your grandfather while one of them is working abroad. They return home to raise that kid til he is 22. Grandfather then marries an international woman, she wants to give birth to your mother in her own country cause that's how women be. They then come back to the USA and raise your mother there til she's 18. She goes to study in England has you with an English-lad. You are an American citizen but you wouldn't be able to play for the US until you did the residency requirement.

also: from what I've been reading on Italy citizenship law it's very likely the Italian players mentioned were eligible for citizenship before being eligible to play for Italy

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I can't give you a person. But for example. Your great grandparents (both born in USA) have your grandfather while one of them is working abroad. They return home to raise that kid til he is 22. Grandfather then marries an international woman, she wants to give birth to your mother in her own country cause that's how women be. They then come back to the USA and raise your mother there til she's 18. She goes to study in England has you with an English-lad. You are an American citizen but you wouldn't be able to play for the US until you did the residency requirement.

also: from what I've been reading on Italy citizenship law it's very likely the Italian players mentioned were eligible for citizenship before being eligible to play for Italy

That's mad! I still back the granny rule for other reasons and I think any citizenship you have as a birth right should stand but that one concern I had clearly doesn't apply!

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I just think that the granny rule is bad cause it only includes one datapoint in a person's life. However it is super convenient cause you just need a person's birth certificate to verify. I think that a granny rule that included the actual contents of a person's life would be much more beneficial. Doesn't make sense to me that a person born in England but raised in Wales make them English? It's just lazy law writing.

 

[Which Tyler]

I just think that the granny rule is bad cause it only includes one datapoint in a person's life. However it is super convenient cause you just need a person's birth certificate to verify. I think that a granny rule that included the actual contents of a person's life would be much more beneficial. Doesn't make sense to me that a person born in England but raised in Wales make them English? It's just lazy law writing.

It makes them both, and I'd be surprised if there's anyone on this board who doesn't know someone who feels a genuine and strong connection with a country other than that they live in; or to have that for both countries.

Living close the Welsh border, I know plenty of people IRL who are 2nd / 3rd generation Welsh, but spent all their lives in England, who feel Welsh and would be delighted to represent Wales, but would refuse an offer to represent England (were they good enough). I'm sure there are plenty of "Canadians" in USA who feel the same, "Uruguayans" in Argentina, "Kiwis" in Aus...
Of course, I have also know people who moved the this country a couple of years ago and were already looking at renouncing their previous citizenship to gain ours (though, thinking about it, I don't know any this side of 2016)

I think the Grandparent rule is fine. It's nice and clear, and easily proven if claimed. The issue of what nationality you truly feel is... complicated and impossible to prove - where someone was born is neither of those things.
My personal reference for tightening things up would be...
Base requirement of 6 years resident to represent any country.
Any years before your 18th birthday counts as 2 years.
Any parent born in that country, counts as 3 years.
Any grandparent born in that country, counts as 2 years.

 

[ncurd]

My personal reference for tightening things up would be...
Base requirement of 6 years resident to represent any country.
Any years before your 18th birthday counts as 2 years.
Any parent born in that country, counts as 3 years.
Any grandparent born in that country, counts as 2 years.

As person who would just prefer it to be residency based (with youth years counting more) I think this is a sensible compromise.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm against the granny rule. I don't see why someone who has not lived in a country nor their parents represent them just because they 'feel' like it (or in reality arnt good enough for their other country).

I call those types of people plastic welsh. Claim to be welsh but no real connection and often support England at football.

 

[Which Tyler]

CBA

 

[Reiser99]

I'm against the granny rule. I don't see why someone who has not lived in a country nor their parents represent them just because they 'feel' like it (or in reality arnt good enough for their other country).

I call those types of people plastic welsh. Claim to be welsh but no real connection and often support England at football.

This is the issue though. Is nationality purely based on physically living/being born somewhere or is it an identity? Yes there are plenty of people who couldn't care less about their heritage, but there are also others who while born and raised in one country, identify more with the country of their ancestors.

I'd be happy with @Which Tyler's proposal where grandparents get you 2 years worth of residency out of 6, but you still have to go and play in the country.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

This is the issue though. Is nationality purely based on physically living/being born somewhere or is it an identity? Yes there are plenty of people who couldn't care less about their heritage, but there are also others who while born and raised in one country, identify more with the country of their ancestors.

I'd be happy with @Which Tyler's proposal where grandparents get you 2 years worth of residency out of 6, but you still have to go and play in the country.

Well you can't identify as being from another country though. There may be plenty of people who like to think like this but it's BS. Just because you identify as anything it doesn't change the fact they have no link to that country, it's all about them just not being good enough for their actual home nation.

 

[Which Tyler]

People who aren't DSLD aren't wrong, just because they don't think like DSLD.

And we're not talking about people with no link to a country, we're talking about people with a strong link to a country, just that DSLD thinks shouldn't.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

People who aren't DSLD aren't wrong, just because they don't think like DSLD.

And we're not talking about people with no link to a country, we're talking about people with a strong link to a country, just that DSLD thinks shouldn't.

DSLD?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

DSLD?

BMG, WT etc

When talking about tenuous grannies (typically a SH player rocking up for Scotland or Wales) it is worth stressing that the player is often picking to play for a side where they have 1x grandparent as their connection versus:

3x grandparents
2x parents
Themselves

All potentially born and raised in another nation.

But yeah, even in those instances its because they feel an overpowering connection to that one grandparent's nation of birth and is not 99 times out of 100 a case of convenience and self interest.

We will be able to test this. If the English league rules do result in financial hardship for non-English Q players then I think we will miraculously see a decline in the number of English based players passionately devoted to the land one of their grandparents was born in 60-70 years ago. Just a slight hunch I've got.

The rules are the rules and I've nothing against any player that pursues them or any union that uses the rules from time to time but doesn't actively employ people to proactively sniff out possible candidates.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Nationality is a construct idk how you can apply a consistent standard across different cultures.

Are these national teams or are these teams representing states?