Narrow minded continue to inhibit minnow nations like Samoa

[Siva Tau]

Here is further proof the powers that be want minnow nations with potential such as Samoa to be competitive and provide entertainment value but not win.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10739364


Nichol said an overwhelming majority of countries voted to change the eligibility criteria that would allow players to change countries once in their careers - it could be done through bloodlines, not residency, and would involve a stand-down period - but the powerful Celtic nations voted it down because they did not want Samoa and Fiji to get stronger.
The IRB chief said he believed the gulf in class between the tier-one countries, such as New Zealand, South Africa and England, and the rest would narrow at this World Cup. Samoa's win was evidence of that.
"It was not a full-strength Australian side, but even so it was a great result for Samoa and a great result for world rugby."

I dont think the IRB can lay claim to Samoa's win.

 

[TNT88]

but the powerful Celtic nations voted it down because they did not want Samoa and Fiji to get stronger.

This seems like a massive over-simplification of the points against letting players change their nominated country at any point during their career as a result of their bloodline.

Unfortunately when reporters leave out important information we don't get the true picture of what is going on. I'm sure the nations who voted it down have better reasons other than to suppress the almighty power of Samoa. Even if they are bad points, it is in nobody's interest to misrepresent them.

 

[Siva Tau]

an overwhelming majority of countries voted to change the eligibility criteria that would allow players to change countries once in their careers

Im not aware of any plausible explanation given to date as to why ?

I dont believe there should be open slather and there must be a rule but to think a guy like Sosene Anesi who played for the AB's once cant play for the country of his birth, now that opportunities to play again for the AB's is nil is disappointing regardless of whether he would make the Manu or not. There are of course similar cases with Tongans and Fijians too.

I think the topic requires further discussion from the powers that be.

I was just thinking Manu Tuilagi could be in a similar situation with England although if he keeps improving Im sure he'll be a roaring success.

 

[TNT88]

Yea i'm not sure, hopefully the issue continues to be discussed at the IRB. It is about getting the right balance, it would be nice if some players could change their nationality to play for their nation of birth, but the same rules could probably be used by big nations to take good players away from smaller ones. Hopefully they find a good mix eventually.

 

[Siva Tau]

Agree dude 100%. Maybe Im just still caught up with the euphoria of Sunday lol.

After sitting at SFS in 94' when we lost 73-3, it means a lot.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I have to say I fully back these decisions. Not in order to keep the Island nations down as you say but to my mind it just cheapens the test scene if you have players jumping ship to another country once their carreers are over somewhere else. Having all sorts of players play for different countries through resicency is bad enough but with globalisation and current trends it does reflect reality. having a player like say Quade Cooper play for Aus and lets say Carter retires and there's no-one to step up and now NZ sign Cooper... nah, no thanks. POSSIBLY an exception can be made with the Islander trio in light of the fact that they are small countries with massive populatiopns based off of the Islands but that does open up a whole can of worms. just too many things that can go ugly.

Also, it's a double edged sword; what's to say it wont lead to a player drai in that you have a up-and-coming youth who has some foreign ancestry or whatever and in today's world who doesn't, now SA sign him at fullback because they can pay more and he always has the option of moving on to Samoa later in his carreer.

Rather, I'd say the IRB and the Island nations should look at strategies they could employ to make sure those players they want to target rather play for their country of origin than for NZ, Aus or England.

 

[Siva Tau]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in case of Samoa the opportunity to play in europe enables them to play for Samoa. This and not anything the IRB has done has strengthened our team. Guys playing at a decent level helps the team when they come back. Unfortunately when they do its often to play with minimal preparation.

 

[Logorrhea]

Pick your nationality and stick to it thank you. No second chances.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm sure there was a thread about this before


Anyway, it's bloody rubbish anyway - you play for a country, you're locked to that country. That's the way it is, that's the way it should always be.

If they wanted to play for their country so much anyway, they wouldn't play for anywhere else.

 

[Rhyer]

those players they want to target

I don't like this comment. New Zealand is in Polynesia is it not? It is to my understanding that people move to New Zealand from the islands for a better life and not for sport. The sport is just a thing that comes later. It's like Thomas Waldrom now in the England squad, he didn't set out to play for England but you could accuse England of poaching him... He just happened to be selected off of a good season. It is similar but slightly different as not every islander goes to New Zealand to play sports, infact very little do.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I'm sure there was a thread about this before


Anyway, it's bloody rubbish anyway - you play for a country, you're locked to that country. That's the way it is, that's the way it should always be.

If they wanted to play for their country so much anyway, they wouldn't play for anywhere else.

This.

You make your bed and sleep in it.

 

[nickdnz]

I love this moaning and whinging about not receiving special treatment. Why should a player who has played for Australia for 61 test caps then be given the right to play for another country. You can be proud and have bonds to another country, but if you play for Australia you are an Australian. Simple. Same applies for England, New Zealand, South Africa ect.

Yes, to a certain extent Samoa, Tonga and Fiji would benefit from being able to steal other players who represent other countries. But they'd benefit more from being given more oppertunities to have regular tests and for top players to be given more of a chance to represent their countries with a window open. At the end of the day however, the players have to want to represent their countries, which given the number of Fijian players who would rather play for their clubs then be apart of Fiji's Rugby World Cup squad, this isn't always the case.

If you represent a country, you are privledged with an oppertunity that millions of other people in your country would love. Imagine the uproar if England decided that they wanted all the Tuilagi's to play for England. How fair would that be? How disrespecful is that to the country they have previously represented? It's a two way thing. There is no special treatment, because the reason England, New Zeland, France etc do so well is because their countries put huge amounts of resources into improving their team (not to mention paying through the IRB, for resources to get to Samoan, Fijian, Tongan rugby), so it's right. I'd love to see Samoa become a real power in rugby, but not through steeling other national players.

Rather, I'd say the IRB and the Island nations should look at strategies they could employ to make sure those players they want to target rather play for their country of origin than for NZ, Aus or England.

As someone else mentioned, despite the reputation (and unwarrented to say the least) New Zealand has for "poaching" players, in the current All Black sqaud there is only Ben Franks (Australia), Toeava (Samoa), Jerome Kaino (American Samoa), Mils Muliaina (Samoa) and Sitivini Sivivatu (Fiji) who were not born in New Zealand. Out of those, only Sivivatu had not moved to New Zealand before he was five years old. Fact is Auckland has more Polynesians in it than any other city in the world (including Apia, Suva and Nuku'alofa). The reason has to do with life style, buisness and family. Why if a Samoan family moves their 4 year old son to New Zealand, should he not consider himself a New Zealander. He can join the army and die for New Zealand, why can't he represent them in sport?

 

[Aedaphon]

Oh dear. It's unfortunate you managed to highlight the only word you misspelled...

Regardless, I sympathise with Samoa, Fiji and Tonga, they do lose a whole host of talented players to the All Blacks every year. But changing the eligibility rules just isn't a long term solution to the problem. As the sides start to develop I think (or rather hope), we'll see more players sticking with their nation by blood, rather than a country that can offer a higher pay check.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I think that the proposed rule may have the complete opposite effect. If one change was allowed, you would have things like Alex Tuilagi playing for England; Caucau, Nalaga, Lovobalavu (and perhaps many other islanders), Tchale-Watchou and the two Georgian props whose names I can't spell playing for France, Fotouali'i playing for the AB in a couple of years and surely Scotland would manage to bring some one-time capped players from other nations somehow.
Just give the PI a real calendar of internationals and perhaps even some money to help them retain their players, but a change in eligibility rules would surely be bad for them.

 

[Hulk Hogan]

/thread.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Oh dear. It's unfortunate you managed to highlight the only word you misspelled...

Regardless, I sympathise with Samoa, Fiji and Tonga, they do lose a whole host of talented players to the All Blacks every year. But changing the eligibility rules just isn't a long term solution to the problem. As the sides start to develop I think (or rather hope), we'll see more players sticking with their nation by blood, rather than a country that can offer a higher pay check.

Did you not read the above post?! They don't! It's a ridiculous weird unwarranted assumption other countries make. England is far guiltier than NZ at 'poaching' players E.g. Flutey, Hape, Waldrom, Vainakolo, Henry Paul etc etc.

 

[nickdnz]

Oh dear. It's unfortunate you managed to highlight the only word you misspelled...

Regardless, I sympathise with Samoa, Fiji and Tonga, they do lose a whole host of talented players to the All Blacks every year. But changing the eligibility rules just isn't a long term solution to the problem. As the sides start to develop I think (or rather hope), we'll see more players sticking with their nation by blood, rather than a country that can offer a higher pay check.

1. Bugger.
2. Actually, they don't. If you read my post, they lose pretty much none. In recent years. Who have a Pacific Island Nation lost to the All Blacks in the last 3 seasons? I'll even accept people who are eligable to play for a PI nation but not born there. I think Victor Vito (born in Wellington, New Zealand), Liam Messam (born in Blenheim, New Zealand) and Sonny Bill Williams (born in Auckland, New Zealand), Rene Ranger (born in Northland, New Zealand) are about the total. If you look at players eligable for other countries, that would be a majority of the All Blacks, as most people have grandparents who immigrated here as it's not an old country.

Now, do I want to bring up players from teir 3 nations England have? Lesley Vainikolo (born Nuku'alofa, Tonga), Manu Tuilagi (born Apia, Samoa), Delon Armitage (born San Fernando, Trinidad), Steffon Armitage (born San Fernando, Trinidad), Simon Shaw (Nairobi, Kenya) and that's without going into the players from Teir One country eligibality. Many of those tier 2/3 nations I'm sure would love to have them avalible. But they made a decision to play for England, and take the spot of other Englishmen in the team, so you leave it at that.

If we look at the last ten years, and only count players that were born in another country, this is the total amount of players who have played for New Zealand and were born, in another country. Out of them, only Sivivatu moved here past the age of 10:

New Zealand: Jerome Kaino (Western Samoa), Ben Franks (Australia), Darren Witcombe (Australia), Steve Devine (Australia), Samual Harding (Australia), Joe Rokocoko (Fiji), Sitivini Sivivatu (Fiji), Sosone Anesi (Samoa), Jerry Collins (Samoa), Alama Ieremia (Samoa), Casey Laulala (Samoa), Chris Mascoe (Samoa), Mils Muliaina (Samoa), John Schwalger (Samoa), Rodney So'oialo (Samoa), Isaia Toeava (Samoa), Andrew Mehrtens (South Africa), Greg Rawlinson (South Africa), Pita Alatini (Tonga), Sione Lauaki (Tonga), Saimone Taumoepeau (Tonga).

Now that looks like a lot of names, but take into account that only one of them moved here past the age of 10 years old, a majority of them played all their rugby in New Zealand and have taken advantage of New Zealand training facilities. If we look at Samoa's current squad that was named to verse Australia, they have Paul Williams (born Auckland, New Zealand), Sailosi Tagicakibau (born Auckland, New Zealand), Kahn Fotuali'i (born Auckland, New Zealand), David Leo (born Dunedin, New Zealand), Kane Thompson (born Wellington, New Zealand), Anthony Perenise (born Porirua, New Zealand), Sakaria Taulafo (born Tasman, New Zealand), Tii Paulo (born Christchurch, New Zealand), Census Johnston (born Auckland, New Zealand), Filipo Lavea Levi (born Huntley, New Zealand).

Looking at the current squad, doesn't it seem like New Zealand's facilities and players contribute to Samoan rugby enough? Keep in mind, this is the last 22 they fielded against Australia, and nearly half of the 22 are born in New Zealand. What other country can say that? How does New Zealad not benefit Samoa?! Keep in mind that a majority of those players actually live in New Zealand, were educated in New Zealand, play club and professional rugby in New Zealand.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't like this comment. New Zealand is in Polynesia is it not? It is to my understanding that people move to New Zealand from the islands for a better life and not for sport. The sport is just a thing that comes later. It's like Thomas Waldrom now in the England squad, he didn't set out to play for England but you could accuse England of poaching him... He just happened to be selected off of a good season. It is similar but slightly different as not every islander goes to New Zealand to play sports, infact very little do.

Couldn't that be becuase those few aren't professional rugby players though? If I were a professional sportsman of test quality and moved to a country ofcourse playing for that country will enter your mind. in the same breath i understand people moving to a place with a better lifestyle and the young ones ending up identifying more with what they know; it's only natural. What i'm getting at is that if those players identify with say NZ or a Saffa kid who's family moved growing up in Aus identifies with Aus then they should stick to it and not all of a sudden claim they've always actually wanted to rather play for Samao/SA when they don't become incumbents for the nation they tried for. My comment about targeting refers to the Islanders needing to try and identify and lure players with close ties; I was not saying that NZ target Island players.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Did you not read the above post?! They don't! It's a ridiculous weird unwarranted assumption other countries make. England is far guiltier than NZ at 'poaching' players E.g. Flutey, Hape, Waldrom, Vainakolo, Henry Paul etc etc.

That's on the current squad. I think NZ is "guilty" of using players for only a few tests that they could have 'let' to other nations, just as Australia just did with Timani and had done with Samo a few years back. A few examples from recent years:
Benson Stanley (three tests last year, Samoa-eligible and is unlikely to get more caps for NZ)
Aled de Malmanche (5 caps in 2009, eligible to play for Wales)
Tamati Ellison and Mike Delany (1 cap in 2009, probably eligible to play for someone else...)

And probably a couple of new caps each year. I don't think NZ have bad intentions in doing so, but I can understand the frustration of, say, Fiji when they see a player that would do a lot of good for their team but that they cannot select because the guy has one cap for NZ four years ago... I think that is the problem, more than the Rokocoko or Sivivatu style cases.

 

[donmcdazzle]

That's on the current squad. I think NZ is "guilty" of using players for only a few tests that they could have 'let' to other nations, just as Australia just did with Timani and had done with Samo a few years back. A few examples from recent years:
Benson Stanley (three tests last year, Samoa-eligible and is unlikely to get more caps for NZ)
Aled de Malmanche (5 caps in 2009, eligible to play for Wales)
Tamati Ellison and Mike Delany (1 cap in 2009, probably eligible to play for someone else...)

And probably a couple of new caps each year. I don't think NZ have bad intentions in doing so, but I can understand the frustration of, say, Fiji when they see a player that would do a lot of good for their team but that they cannot select because the guy has one cap for NZ four years ago... I think that is the problem, more than the Rokocoko or Sivivatu style cases.

Current squad or any AB squad ever would be similar in terms of only a couple at most having moved to NZ after the age of about 5.

Point taken on the guys eligible for other squads that only make one or two caps for the AB's, but for these guys playing for the AB's once is I'm sure better than playing for another lesser nation 50 times. Stanley for example was born, raised, schooled in NZ; he would've (like pretty much every kiwi kid) dreamt of playing for the ABs. He achieved that dream which would mean more than having played a few games for another team he qualified for through ancestry or whatever.

If these players really wanted to play for the lesser nations then they would declare their allegiance and do so.